Stanley, Horace

              K-25 Oral History Interview
Date: 4/12/05
Interviewee: Horace Stanley
Interviewer: Bart Callan





















 [1:00:06]

Callan, B.:	We’ll go ahead and start you out with the hard question.  Go ahead and state your name.  

Stanley, H.:	H. G. Stanley.  Horace Goodman Stanley. 

Callan, B.:	And spell your name out for me and tell me what it was you did out there. 

Stanley, H.:	Spell it out, my name? 

Callan, B.:	Yes, please spell it out. 

Stanley, H.:	H-O-R-A-C-E, Horace, G-O-O-D-M-A-N, Goodman, S-T-A-N-L-E-Y.  

Callan, B.:	Okay.  Don’t worry about what’s going on with the -- how old are you? 

Stanley, H.:	Right now, I’m 83. 

Callan, B.:	Where were you born and expand upon -- 

Stanley, H.:	I was born in Greensboro, North Carolina in 1921. 

Callan, B.:	You want to expand on your childhood or growing up?

Stanley, H.:	Well, let’s see I grew up in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I went to school there up through junior high, yeah, junior high.  Then I -- at 12 years old, I transferred to Durham, North Carolina.  And my dad was going to be -- he was a traveling salesman and he decided to go over there.  And we moved to Durham, and I went to school there at Durham High and I entered at 12 years old and they put me in the 11th grade homeroom, but I was supposed to be in a 10th grade homeroom.  So we got that straightened out. 

[1:02:29]

	And then I graduated from Durham High School in 1937.  And I was 15 years old.  So decided I wanted to go to Duke University, and my parents thought I would because my brother went there.  So I went over to Duke University and the freshman dean, when I went in, said, “Now you’re just 15 years old.  We don’t want you to let us down now.”  I said, “Okay, I’ll try my best.”  Well I ended up making Phi Beta Kappa.  And then graduated at 19, so I guess I didn’t disappoint him. 

Callan, B.:	That’s incredible.  What kind of work did you do prior to working at K-25?

Stanley, H.:	Well, my first job, I lived in Durham, North Carolina, where Duke was.  And I went to work at the American Tobacco Company in Durham, a cigarette manufacturer.  I worked in an office.  So I was doing bookwork.  And back then the computers weren’t computers.  They were calculators and some of them weren’t even electric.  You had to turn some of (indiscernible).  And then later on, I got into the kind where they were electric.  Eventually, where I ended up, I was computer analyst and we would send jobs down to these big computers.  Right now -- at that time, when I left work at K-25, we had a computer that would fill five or six of these apartments here and calculating didn’t work on it.  Now they could do the same thing I think with one -- about the size of half of this room because they’ve gone up and gotten so much better. 

[1:4:12]

	I’ve been gone now for 20 -- let’s see 1982 -- I’ve been gone over 20 years and you know what they’ve done in the last 20 years.   

Callan, B.:	Oh yeah, technology is -- 

Stanley, H.:	Oh yeah it’s great. I wish I had had it. 

Callan, B.:	Just wanted to caution you.  Be careful of fumbling the paper.  

Stanley, H.:	Beg your pardon. 

Callan, B.:	When you’re fumbling the paper, it picks u on the audio so -- 

Stanley, H.:	Okay. 

[1:04:39]

Callan, B.:	Tell me why you came to work at K-25?  What attracted you to come?  How did you hear about it? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, I’ll have to go back a little bit.  When I was working at Durham and the American Tobacco Company office, a fella came down from Kingsport, Tennessee, and he was trying to find people to come up and work at Holston Ordinance Works, Tennessee Eastman.  

	So I thought about it and decided I would.  So I went up there and I got a job at the -- they didn’t have any big buildings built.  There was the Holston Ordinance Works, and they were headed downtown in some other buildings, near the school.  And I got a job as chief clerk of the medical department.  I didn’t know medicine, but I was keeping records and things like that from -- So I had that job from I guess it was about December of ‘43.  Let’s see is that right.  No, it was December of ‘42, I guess.  So I was there about I’d say about -- let’s see, about over a year, I think.

	And then I transferred from Tennessee Eastman there to Tennessee Eastman down here.  So I went from Holston Ordinance Works (HOW Tech), Tennessee Eastman to Q Tech CEW TEC down here, which was technical engineer works.  And then I came on down here and got a job civilian job with TEC.  And they put us in there. 

[1:06:15]

	Are you familiar with Oak Ridge? 

Callan, B.:	Yes, a little bit. 

Stanley, H.:	You know where the U.S. ED building is.  That’s the big one on the hill, as you -- when you’re down near the middle of the town, up near the old post office.  It’s a big old building.  That’s where we were, in that big building.  United States Engineering Division, I guess that’s what U.S.E.D.  

	So we had an office there.  I worked in that office for a good while.  Let’s see that was from about like -- I came down there in April of ‘43 from Kingsport.  So I was one of the first employees they had, first four employees, really.  And then we had another -- four men.  And then another man came in from California -- I’ve forgotten this name.  But I remember two of the fellas I worked with, if you’re interested.  W. R. Chambers and Jim Campbell.  I don’t remember the others because it’s been so long.  I haven’t seen them or heard of them. 

	But we stayed there in that U.S.E.D. building from April of ‘43 when I went down there until about, oh -- when did we go to Y-12?  I think we went over to Y-12 about -- I’ve forgotten.  Sometime in late ‘43 at Y-12.  You’re familiar with all that, I guess, Y-12.  

[1:07:42]

	So I stayed there and worked -- we had -- we were in charge of keeping track of material there too.  More or less accounting -- I guess you’d call it product accountability.  So, I stayed there and worked there with people that you probably heard of, Al Bissell, who has been our mayor in Oak Ridge.  He was a good friend of mine too.  He and his wife are almost like a mother and dad to me and my wife when we first met them.  

	Then I was them for a while and then I went with Fred Uffleman.  I don’t know if you’ve heard of him or you’ve even interviewed him or anything. 

Callan, B.:	What was the last name? 

Stanley, H.:	Fred Uffleman.  U-F-F-L-E-M-A-N, I believe.  And he was a supervisor of one of  the groups there.  I think he was -- I believe he was over Al Bissell.  And all of us worked for a fella named Bart Bromley.  I don’t know if you ever heard of him yet. 

[1:08:46]

	I stayed there until, let’s see.  That was -- I got a note here somewhere.  I had to have a note because I forget some of the dates on this, if it makes any difference.  But first, I’m going to mention while I was in that U.S.E.D. building up there on the hill, Castle on the Hill we’d call it, some of us old timers.  

	This fella, he called me into his office there from the Army.  His name was Captain -- let’s see what was his name?  Captain.  Let me see.  Captain Leonard.  He was U.S. Army.  He called me in there one day and he was in the same building we were.  And he said, “I’m wondering if you could -- I want you to do some work for me.  It’s still under cover.”  I said, “Okay.”  He said, “I’m going to give you a bunch of envelopes --” I don’t know if you had anybody else tell you this.  And they’re addressed to ACME Credit Corporation.  And the envelopes and they’re pre-stamped, pre-addressed.  

	And what he wanted me to do was to -- every week, about Friday, say, if I’d seen anything unusual that didn’t look right or question any activities that might be -- might quite up to what they should be, anything questionable, anybody asking any questions or anything.  So, I said, “Okay.”  

[1:10:15]

	So every week on Friday, I’d fill out this thing and send it.  Most of the time, it was nothing.  I’d just say, “Hi.  How are things going?  Hope you all are feeling well.”  But once in a while, if I had anything I questioned, and at one time I did, when I was -- they sent me to Boston one time, this was after that.  But while I was in Boston, working for Tennessee Eastman and we were getting some operators, some men up there.  I was office manager there but not technical.  I was staying in an apartment -- in an apartment complex.  And one -- some fella came up that was staying there, he would keep asking me questions about things.  And I thought he might -- I wonder if he’s going to ask me some questions.  

	So I sent him name off on one of my Friday reports.  And about a week or later, he wasn’t there anymore.  I don’t know if it was coincidence or whether it was -- he was gone.  So I don’t know what happened to that.  That’s one of the few times that I think I ever reported anything that I got in the possible results.  Of course, they didn’t want to have anything if they could help it.  So it was more or less a covert thing for the Captain Leonard, I guess, must have been charge of security or something. 

[1:011:32]

Callan, B.:	Just for clarification.  So basically you had to send letters out and they were addressed to Acme Credit Corporation. 

Stanley, H.:	Credit Corporation.  Pre-stamped.  And then that -- wherever they went, that was what they got.  This Captain or his group got it, or somebody.  I don’t know where it went.  But I did that a couple of years, I think, at least a year and I think maybe two years before they told me I didn’t need to.  

Callan, B.:	That’s interesting.  I haven’t heard anything like that before. 

Stanley, H.:	I think it would all right to tell that now because they quit and it’s been many, many years. 

Callan, B.:	Yeah, I don’t think that’s anything to --

Stanley, H.:	They were just wanting to be sure that if it’s anything going on, they -- oh, one thing funny about that.  

	About -- I think a year or two after I got started doing that, I was at a banquet one day, and one of my good friends was sitting over next to me.  The tables were like this and I was here and he was here and he was here.  And he’s taking off his coat.  I looked in his pocket.  I saw ACME Credit Corporation sticking out.  And he shouldn’t of had it like that [laughs]; so he had another one.  And he was one of my best friends and we never knew each other -- I never said anything to him about it.  So -- 

Callan, B.:	Interesting.  When you first came out here to K-25 and you saw the K-25 site, what were your first recollections?  What did you first thing about that?  

Stanley, H.:	I thought it was one of the muddiest places I’ve ever been because when it rained, they had no sidewalks in what is now Oak Ridge.  I guess, it was just -- and we had to -- even when you went to the cafeteria down there and the post office and all, they didn’t have any -- they might have had a few walks, but the roads weren’t.  They were mid.  So we had to wear boots up to -- halfway to the knee, you know, everywhere we went.  So that was one of the first things. 

	But I liked it because it had a lot of young people.  It had a lot of young engineers.  Well I wasn’t an engineer.  I was more accounting, but I enjoyed meeting all these people and then right there in the middle -- you’re familiar with Oak Ridge a little bit, I guess, aren’t you? 

Callan, B.:	A little bit. 

[1:13:40]

	Well, right there at the regional post office, right across from the U.S. EE building.  We had a cafeteria down there and we’d go down there and eat and -- so we got started.  There’s another little building over there and a basement, which had a bowling alley at one end and upstairs.  There was a big sort of hall room.  So we had dances there.  And I loved to dance.  So we went to -- I used to go the dances there all the time and got to meet all the people.  I thick I met Bill Wilcox and his wife there.  And let’s see.  Well, it had ping pong, so we played.  It was a reaction center sort of.  But I went to dance because I loved dancing.  So -- 

Callan, B.:	Give me your work background.  What years did you work at the K-25 site and --

Stanley, H.:	I worked at Y-12 -- excuse me.  I worked at Y-12 first for about -- let’s see from ‘43.  I came down in April ‘43 and then I might as well tell you; this I have in my notes.  I worked there and while I was there, they sent me up to Boston and I was up there for two or three -- just for the -- mostly for the early summer and maybe mid summer of ‘43.  And I was office manager there; that was all special type.  

[1:15:16]

	So while I was there, that’s when I met that fella I reported.  He disappeared.  They finally sent me back down to Y-12.  And I stayed there and worked with Al Bissell, who is a -- whose been mayor of Oak Ridge.  And then I worked with him and for about -- let’s see Bart Bromley, some of the names you might have heard of, and Fred Uffleman.  I don’t know if you’ve had him.  I know him.  And then -- and we were doing computer work, keeping track of the material.  Of course, we didn’t know what it was.  Most of us, we was just keeping it but I guess it’d be hard to tell you -- well it doesn’t matter.  We had unrefined and refined and they had letters we used for it, but I don’t think that would be secret now but it doesn’t matter. 

	So while I was doing that and working for Fred Uffleman and Al Bissell and Mark Bromely were some of the names I remember.  Then they decided to -- oh, while I was there -- can I regress a little bit and tell you when I got married? 

Callan, B.:	Sure. 

Stanley, H.:	While I was there, I got married and my wife came down and we got married in ‘40 -- February ‘44.  And she came down and went to work too.  So she was at Y-12 while I was there.  And she worked for another place.  Then when I transferred to -- by the time I transferred to K-25, she had already stopped work because she was pregnant with my first son.  Now this is my second son that I introduced you to a while ago. 

[1:17:16]

	While I was there at Y-12, I was working for let’s see - the names you might have heard of.  Let’s see here.  Dr. Conklin.  Have you ever heard of him?  He was the head of Y-12 for several years.  And while we were there, General Groves came down and spoke to us and we were glad to see him because he was well known at that time.  And I think when we did have the Hiroshima thing, he talked to us about that and congratulated us.  

	Actually though as a sideline thing to tell you.  Might not be along  the right course, but when they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, my wife and I were on vacation in North Carolina, down at my dad’s old home.  And she didn’t even know what we were doing.  I think I knew what they were doing, but I hadn’t told her.  So when they dropped the bomb and announced it and said it come from Oak Ridge or whatever they called it.  I think it was Oak Ridge by then.  I said, “Now you know what we were doing.”  [laughs]  So it was a pleasure -- you shouldn’t be pleased when somebody else gets hurt, I guess, but it was great to know we had done something and it done some good. 

[1:18:37]

Callan, B.:	So you had some sort of indication what was going on here before the bomb was actually dropped? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, I didn’t know whether we were going to do it.  I had an idea it was an explosive and I just gotten that out.  They never did tell us a whole lot.  In my work, I didn’t need to know.  So you only got -- I knew it was a product of something that was really important.  And they never told us exactly and in accounting, we didn’t need to know see. 

Callan, B.:	Tell me more about General Groves when you met him and he talked to you -- 

Stanley, H.:	Well, he came down and gave us a -- I guess you’d call it a pep talk back while we were working there at Y-12.  That was in -- let’s see.  That was in the 45/46, yeah, mid 40s, I guess because I went to K-25 somewhere in about 46 somewhere along in there.  But we -- I don’t guess we even knew.  We knew -- I think we knew by that time when he got there that there was a -- what we were doing.  It was explosive but most of us didn’t know -- and most of the accounting department didn’t need to know.  I didn’t need to know.  We -- and then we -- but we were pleased that he came down because he thanked us for doing the work.  Of course, we were glad to do it.  Most of us were -- 

	At that time, most of us were pretty young too.  We didn’t have many fears, fear of the ones who were in charge were older.  There were a lot of 20-year-olds there working there, and I was one of them.  So it was sort of a fun time.  And we did have -- we didn’t have a whole lot we could do.  But we had dances and that was one of the fun things I like to do. 

Callan, B.:	Okay.  If someone was just to inquire that has no idea about K-25 and they were to ask you what work was done here, how would you describe it?

[1:20:30]

Stanley, H.:	You mean now or then? 

Callan, B.:	Now.

Stanley, H.:	What would I tell them?  Well, I’d tell them we were working on the product which made the atom bomb, they used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  And that we were -- most of us didn’t know what it was, but we knew it was something to help the war effort because it not supposed to tell us what it was if you didn’t need to know, and I didn’t need to know.  Some of my friends, like Bill Wilcox or some of them probably -- I think they were engineers and they probably knew more about it.  

	Oh, at one time while I was working at Y-12, I was down in one of the buildings.  I had to go down and get information from some of the places there where they had operators working here and the fellas in charge over here.  I’d go to fellas in charge to get data from what they were doing, how much of this and how much of that they’d done.  They called it by code names so we didn’t know what it was.  I didn’t.  And then I’d see them over there working and I knew that they had taken them -- telling them to be real careful.  And while I was there one time, we had some visitors come in and I think -- see, I don’t know if General Groves was with him that time.  But we had some of the ones who came in. 

[1:21:48]

	Let’s see.  We had Dr. -- let’s see, what -- I have to look at my notes here because, like I say, I have trouble remembering all these things.  We had several -- Groves came in.  Let me see if there is anybody else you know.  I don’t guess you would.  But we knew who they were at the time because they were working in that same sort of thing elsewhere.  

Callan, B.:	What are your most vivid recollections of the time that you spent out here in Oak Ridge and K-25?  What are some of your favorite memories? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, let’s see.  Well, I enjoyed meeting the people that I worked with and -- because most of them were my age and we had a pretty young crowd to start with.  But by the time I left, of course, I had been there a long time.  I came in when I was -- let’s see.  I guess it must have been about 20, and no more than 21.  And when I left I was -- well, I was getting pretty old.  So -- but I enjoyed the people.  I mean, you -- I liked associating with them, both in working because they were -- most of them were young.  

	Of course, our supervisor was older.  But most of them were my age.  And so it was fun to meet all these people and associate with them.  And we would eat together sometimes.  And we went to -- as I say, I like to dance, so we went to dances and met a lot of them there and churches.  I went to Episcopal Church after I was married.  So I met a lot of people.  That’s where I met Bill Wilcox and some of the other fellas you might have met.  And we all had -- I remember when he and his wife had just gotten married, I think, and now they’re grandparents like I am. 

[1:23:52] 

Callan, B.:	Was there anything that you didn’t like about working out here during the time that you were out here? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, in the early days, I didn’t like treading around in all that mud, but that was minor.  No, I didn’t have anything in particular I didn’t like.  I kind of liked it all.  My parents, when they came out to visit me, didn’t like it when they came to the gate and they -- and my mother and dad and they went through all my mother’s clothes.  They were looking through all her clothes in her suitcase and her underwear were coming out and she said that embarrassed her.  But I thought it was kind of funny.  [laughs]

Callan, B.:	What year was that? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, let’s see.  That might have been --  

Callan, B.:	Approximately. 

Stanley, H.:	Mid ‘40s.  So, -- but we had pretty strict work -- pretty strict things like that.  They didn’t want anybody finding out anything they didn’t know and you weren’t able -- you weren’t supposed to tell anybody anything, of course. 

Callan, B.:	Were you allowed to come and go as you pleased?  

Stanley, H.:	No, to get into Oak Ridge back in the early days, they had -- at the edge of -- between Clinton and Oak Ridge, when you came from Clinton to Oak Ridge, you got to go through a gate.  And that guard’s there.  And you had to stop and let them check.  That’s when they checked through my mama’s -- my mother’s everything.  They go through your suitcases and everything.  They did then.  They might have eased it up later, after the war was over.  But I’m sure they did.  Eventually they did away with the gates, you know, but they were strict, real strict at first b because they weren’t taking any chances, and I don’t blame them.  And I think it was the thing to do. 

[1:25:39]

Callan, B.:	Did you ever leave Oak Ridge?  Like did you ever go into Knoxville?  

Stanley, H.:	Oh sure.  We’d go to Knoxville sometimes and shop because early days we didn’t have much to -- many shopping places to do anything.  So we’d go to Knoxville but I didn’t -- I don’t guess we went too much.  We had most of the things we needed in Oak Ridge as far as we had cafeterias and we had places we could go to eat and they had stores.  We didn’t have like -- if you really wanted to get a whole lot of variety, you’d have to go to Knoxville. 

Callan, B.:	And when you went to Knoxville, I’m sure the locals around there were curious about what was going on up in Oak Ridge.  Back then, what did you tell them if they asked you? 

Stanley, H.:	I didn’t tell them anything.  We’d say, “Well, we’re -- I’m not at liberty to tell you that.”  

Callan, B.:	What about within the facility itself?  When you’re at K-25, how did coworkers communicate with each other, dealing with the issue of secrecy? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, now actually, to go back a little ways, I think I was at Y-12 first and that’s when it was really tight.  And I’m trying to think whether I was at Y-12 or K-25 when they dropped the bomb, the first one on Hiroshima.  But we didn’t talk about it.  We didn’t talk about work or -- unless you had to.  I mean, we were not supposed to do that and we didn’t.  I mean, we didn’t discuss it outside of the plant.  And we didn’t discuss it in the plant with anybody you weren’t supposed to.  

	And actually, let’s see.  I think back then they had a leathering system for your badge.  You had to wear a badge with your picture and all it had the A, B, C, and D, I believe.  And I forget which direction they went now.  But either “A” was the most -- you could ask anything and from anybody else as “A.”  And maybe “D” was -- either one of those -- I think that was probably the way it was.  And I forgot -- I think I had a “B” or “C” or something.  I think I was a “B.”  I wasn’t an “A,” I know.  But since I was collecting data from the -- out in the pants that would eventually get -- it was really for the product and I didn’t know really what it was for, particularly I mean as far as what it was because I didn’t have to know that.  But I think I had -- I didn’t have a -- I forgot how it went.  It was A, B, C, D, and “D” was the one that could know anything, and “A” you weren’t supposed to or all the way around.  But anyway, I was next to where you could know.  I wasn’t way down the line, but I -- since I was handling the product records, even though they knew what it was, I had access to that. 

[1:28:28]

Callan, B.:	As far as communicating with your friends and family, how was that?  What was that like?  You know, talking to friends and family and then trying to deal around the issue of secrecy.  Was it hard? 

Stanley, H.:	Not -- well, no it wasn’t really hard because they knew they weren’t supposed to ask.  And I mean, we told them what we were doing and they weren’t supposed to ask questions.  And they didn’t try.  Most of the people who are out here knew what they were doing.  I mean -- we were doing something for the war effort -- and they weren’t supposed to.  It was secret and they didn’t ask questions.  It was really -- if they did, they didn’t get any answers or they’d get reported to somebody, like I did once.  

[crew talk]

[End of Tape 1, Begin Tape 2]

[2:00:15]

Stanley, H.:	-- of course, I had a “B” badge.  And A, B, C, D, and I had a “B” and he had an “A.”  I could answer him, but if somebody below had a “C” and asked me a question, I had to think about whether I could even answer it because I might.  Usually you didn’t ask anything.  You didn’t ask anybody anything if you didn’t think you were going to get it.  I mean, we knew better than that.

[2:00:27]

Callan, B.:	Let me have you just retell the story for me that you just told me.

Stanley, H.:	Okay.

Callan, B.:	Please.

Stanley, H.:	Where do you want me to start answering my question?

Callan, B.:	Let’s see I’m trying to think of the best way to prompt you back there.

Stanley, H.:	You could ask about classified -- classification.

Callan, B.:	Yeah, we’re talking about the issue of classification.  We were talking about, I guess, the hierarchy or the different levels, A, B, C, and D and that you had some -- just talk about how you could answer the questions for people of a certain level without -- 

Stanley, H.:	Yeah, okay.  I’m sorry I don’t remember.  “A” was the best, the one that could answer -- you could answer anybody that had an “A,” if you were B, C, or D.  I think it must be that way.  It’s been so long.  I’m not sure which direction it was, but if -- 

[2:01:26]

	One time our plant superintendent came by and he had some guests with him who were probably from the Army or something.  And they asked -- they could ask me a question and I’d look at the badge.  And of course, I knew the plant manager, I could answer him.  And he had an “A” and I had a “B,” I think it was, out of A, B, C, D.  So I could answer his question, but if I asked him something, he might not answer because he couldn’t because I wasn’t supposed to have information. 

	So when these fellas came in, I answered that question and it went fine, but you weren’t supposed to ask anybody that had a higher one unless you were sure -- Well, if you did, he would tell you he couldn’t tell you.  He’d just say, “I can’t tell you that.”  But if you had an “A,” you could talk to them.  You could ask anybody and if they see who you are and that you got an “A,” and they got a B, C, or D, they could answer the question, if they knew it.  Sometimes they might not even know what they’re talking about.  

Callan, B.:	Did that system sort of, I guess, not dictate but sort of influence the people that you hung around with while at work?  Like did “A’s” eat lunches with “A’s”? 

[2:02:38]

Stanley, H.:	We could do anything we wanted to do with those, you just had to know -- they just had to have the badge on if we were at work.  And when you’re away from work, you didn’t answer many questions unless you were sure.  You know, don’t take chances.  We didn’t take chances on things like that. 

Callan, B.:	What were the physical working conditions like at K-25? 

Stanley, H.:	You mean -- what? 

Callan, B.:	The physical working conditions. 

Stanley, H.:	Air conditioning and stuff like that?  They were -- I didn’t have any problem because I was in the office.  Now some of them down in the plant might have because I went down to the plants to get information for our records sometimes, and I knew not to get over near where they were processing and cleaning the equipment – Into where they were processing things.  They’d bring it out and wash and clean the stuff.  I knew not to go over there and mess with that because it might be dangerous because we knew. 

[2:03:38]

	Somehow though -- I guess we knew something was radioactive.  I don’t know how we knew that, but we knew it was something.  Maybe they didn’t tell us that.  They just said don’t get around it because it might be dangerous and so we didn’t get around it.  And people, I think most -- unless you were pretty odd, you wouldn’t want to get into something like that, I mean, if you were really after something, you might.  But otherwise -- they let us know what was dangerous.  They say, “Don’t mess with this.  Don’t get close to it.”  And we didn’t do it. 

Callan, B.:	Were there other rules that were important to follow?  What kind of rules and procedures did they have out there that you really had to be careful to follow? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, the main thing was you had to be -- don’t go anywhere that -- I think they had the letters on some of the areas.  If it was a particular area or particular building, it was earmarked so you would know if you could go into that or if you didn’t.  Somebody would tell you because they’d have a guard outside or	 something.  

	Even when I was in the computer office there towards the end, we had a guard on the outside of that.  Well there’s nothing in the processing of the products that they were doing, making that stuff you know. 

[2:04:47]

	But we had data that was in there so they had to have a clearance from somebody to get in, even just to get in the compute center.  So it was pretty well -- they had guarded it pretty well and pretty well graded so you’re not supposed -- if you know you’re not supposed to go in there, you don’t go in.  If you try to, you’re going to get in trouble.  

Callan, B.:	Was there -- you stated early, pretty much everybody out there was at least younger folks, in their 20s.  Were there instances of people that would do things out at the plant to try to skate around the rules or skate around security?  How were they dealt with?  

Stanley, H.:	They dealt with them pretty roughly.  I mean, pretty serious, if they did.  I don’t know personally of anybody that did that because they did a pretty good check up on you before you come in there.  And they didn’t get any -- well, they got very few if any.  I don’t know of any that they did that they kicked out on the on account, something like that.  But I’m sure there were some.  But they did a pretty good investigation before anybody got the job back then.  And so that was -- that kept -- I don’t remember any problem with that particularly.  

[2:06:02]

Callan, B.:	What was your supervisor like? 

Stanley, H.:	I had several.  One of them was Alvin Bissell, who got to be the mayor of Oak Ridge.  And he was a good friend of mine.  He’s sorta almost like a big brother to me because I worked with him for a while and I met his wife and my wife met his wife.  And we’d go see them every now and then.  They were good friends.  So supervision in that case was good. 

	And then let’s see; most of my supervisors, though I didn’t get a chance to socialize with.  I might see them in church or something like that, but ordinarily, we didn’t have any trouble with them because we could -- I mean, I could go out with somebody that was a different classification from me, but you just don’t ask questions.  You know better than that.  When it’s over, you could ask your question at work or anywhere else.  But I had to be careful to not ask anybody anything unless I’m sure that they could answer it.  And that’s why we had the badges.  Of course, we didn’t wear badges when you’re out at home or anything like that.  So if you went somewhere like that, if you broached a subject like that, somebody will tell you, “I can’t tell you that.”  Don’t ask me that.  I didn’t have that because I didn’t have a whole lot of knowledge.  Most of the people below me -- I mean, I was a “B”, I think and the “C’s” and “D’s”, most of them in the office don’t ask questions of somebody like that if they think -- well, if they did ask you, you say, “Well, I can’t tell you that.”  That’s all they’d have to say. 

Callan, B.:	What about your coworkers?  What were they like?  Did everybody pull their weight? 

Stanley, H.:	Yeah, I think they did.  I think most of them -- they investigated people when they were coming to work out here pretty closely.  So you weren’t going to get anybody that was -- that anybody else knew wasn’t reliable or if you did, it was a mistake.  If it was too much a mistake, they’d leave -- they wouldn’t keep them either. 

[2:08:06]

	But I never had any trouble or anything like that.  Either way, even asking somebody that they didn’t or talking to somebody about something and they shouldn’t or -- that’s just the part about the -- what you ask or not to ask.  But you talk about just generally were other people were good or friendly?  I think they were real friendly because mostly they were young.  I mean, the top men and women were -- they were older, but most of them, when I came out here in my early 20s, we had an awful lot in the 20s and 30s.  Of course, all the specialists were older.  And -- but I wasn’t a specialist at that time. 

[2:08:48]

Callan, B.:	You mentioned you had met Groves or Groves had spoken with you at some point in time.  Other than Groves were there any other famous or noted people in history that you met that came out here? 

Stanley, H.:	Let’s see.  I don’t remember.  Let’s see.  I don’t recall anybody in particular except the ones who were from another plant, like maybe from X-10 or something like that and they’d come over.  And we know who they are.  And we liked to hear them because they talked about things we were interested in.  Like, I said, we didn’t ask questions if we didn’t think we could get an answer because if you did, you didn’t get an answer if you weren’t supposed to  talk about that part. 

Callan, B.:	Let’s talk a little bit about health care.  What kind of health facilities were available to you?

[2:09:45]

Stanley, H.:	Well each plant had its own medical department, and we had good medical departments, I thought.  I was at Y-12 first and then K-25, and I thought they were both real good.  And I was at K-25 longer so I know more about that, but we had a nice hospital -- not hospital, nice medical department there; a big building.  And we got good service and didn’t have any problems with it at all that I know of.  We were served real well by the medical department. 

Callan, B.:	How much emphasis did the company and you supervisors place on safety?  Was your health regularly monitored while you worked at the facility? 

Stanley, H.:	Your health, you say? 

Callan, B.:	Yes.  Did they do regular -- 

Stanley, H.:	I think yeah, I think we had a -- I’m not sure whether we had a full check up every -- any particular time.  But if you had anything that was doubtful, they would surely get you into it and give you -- I don’t think we did have a -- it’s been a long time.  But I don’t thick we had to go any particular period, you know, like every six months or we’d do a full -- but if you went for anything that could be wrong, they’d give you a good check up.  I thought we had real good doctors there, and I still associate with some of them that I knew back then.  In the seniors, I play bridge with them and things like that. 

[2:11:14] 

Callan, B.:	You’ve got a bunch of Manhattan Project questions, but you’ve covered quite a few of them.  Do you want to discuss a little bit more what your reaction was on August 6, 1945 and how it kind of linked up to what you were doing and what the overall feeling was of everybody that worked here when that happened, when the bomb was dropped?  

Stanley, H.:	You mean afterward or before the time of the drop? 

Callan, B.:	Yeah. 

Stanley, H.:	Well, like I said, I wasn’t here, but they had a big -- in fact, there was a picture in one of the buildings where I knew one of the senior buildings or something.  A picture there of a -- when they dropped it and they had a picture of the people that took a picture of the gang of people there.  They were all cheering, you know.  And most of them were pretty young then.  And I wasn’t in it because I was there because I was late on that day.  

[2:12:07]

	But I think people, they were real glad we did that.  It’s a shame we had to kill so many people, I guess, but it stopped the war and it saved our people.  So I think it was worth the trouble.  I thick everybody was -- then they found out -- a lot of people didn’t know what we were doing.  I think they did announce that we had been active in the helping with that, you know.  So that made us all feel good.  Feel bad about having to kill people, but good to stop the war. 

Callan, B.:	How do you think that history will view the Manhattan Project and its outcome? 

Stanley, H.:	I think they ought to -- if you’re talking about American history, they will look at it greatly.  If you look at the Japanese, they might not appreciate it.  But I think that all in all, most countries have gotten into that and want to -- help -- I mean get to help their own country protect themselves.  And I expect that most countries now probably have that access to that type of thing.  I hope we don’t have to use it any more. 

[2:13:00]

Callan, B.:	If you could relive those years in Oak Ridge during the war, would you change anything? 

Stanley, H.:	Yeah, I might get a bigger salary or something like that.  No, I don’t know anything I could change.  No, I kind of enjoyed being here in Oak Ridge because I like the people here, and I’ve been here, as I say, since ‘43.  So it wasn’t even Oak Ridge when I came.  It was Clinton Engineer Works.  It didn’t become Oak Ridge until later. 

Callan, B.:	Are you familiar with the expansion program? 

Stanley, H.:	No.  

Callan, B.:	Talk a little bit about K-25 after World War II was over.  How did the mission of the site change?  How did roles change?  Just how did things change here after the war?  What was the role of the facility after World War II, during coming into the cold war era?  How did thing change from when you initially got here?  

Stanley, H.:	It didn’t change a whole lot, I don’t think.  We continued to work on it, but we had to realize that the other countries were doing the same thing.  So we had to keep up to snuff on the processing and do -- if there’s any improvements they could make, I wasn’t in that part, so I’m not a specialist in that, but as I say, computer analyst, but I think we realized that the other countries are going to be doing that, so we gotta keep our work going.  If anything can be improved, do so, and on the other hand, don’t try to get in any wars if we can help it.  

[2:14:54]

	But if we do, we gotta continue doing our work. 

Callan, B.:	What are your thoughts now about how the activities accomplished at K-25 revolutionized the world? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, I don’t -- as I say, I’ve been retired now for 20 years or over 20 years.  And I presume they’re doing a real good job still at the plants.  But -- and I’m sure the other countries are now getting caught up with us somewhat in the production of such things.  And I just hope that we don’t ever have a war that’ll have -- put us or others into danger like that because it’d deadly, as you know. 

Callan, B.:	Yes.  Let’s talk a little bit about your job that you worked specifically because I haven’t had a computer analyst in here before.  We’ve had a lot of engineers but you kind of have a different perceptive.  I guess describe the work that you do in as much detail as you can recall what your job was and what you did. 

[2:16:04]

Stanley, H.:	Well, contrary to what a lot of them think because they got all the big computers now, as I say, I’ve been retired 20-some years.  But back then, we didn’t have anything -- for example, even when I retired, we had -- in the computer building -- we had a computer building at K-25.  It’s guarded, of course, but not like it used to be, I’m sure. 

	But we had one room there that was, oh, it was as big as a small church or maybe most -- twice the size of some people’s houses.  It had a computer in there, a big one.  Now they could put that in -- all of that in here, in one room because they’ve got them compressed down to where you can get work so much easier.  Maybe even less than that, I don’t know.  As I say, I haven’t been in it for 20-something years so -- but it looks to me like the computer business is something that you gotta have and everybody has it just about, even in their own home.  

	So I think that other countries are getting it too though.  So, I mean, they’re catching.  So if we ever have another war, it’ll be pretty bad all around.  But we gotta keep up and try to keep ahead if we can. 

[2:17:34]

Callan, B.:	It sounds like you worked with probably some of the first computers that were ever built.  Tell me what it was like working on a computer like that.  I’m sure you probably had some exposure to the way computers are now and -- tell me about -- how did you work with a computer? 

Stanley, H.:	When I got out of college in 1941 at Duke, I went to work at the American Tobacco Company in the office, and we -- they made cigarettes there in Durham, Lucky Strikes, I think.  And I was the office -- we had computers there that weren’t even electric, and the desk computers that you had to turn like this.  And then we finally got some electric ones and then we -- I wasn’t there, but about -- I was there about three years -- three years or so.  By that time they had gotten electric ones, of course.  But we still didn’t have the huge computers.  We still had desk computers at that time. 

	And when I came out to Kingsport, I wasn’t in that -- I was in the medical department at that time as a chief clerk.  And then when it came down -- I wasn’t there too long and then I came down here.  

Callan, B.:	When you’re talking about these desk computers, explain to me what a desk computer even is.  What did you do with a desk computer?  What was it that -- 

Stanley, H.:	You kept records of the -- of course, while I was at the American Tobacco Company, the cost of the cigarette making all that.  Anything that that had to be calculated, you used it with a -- we didn’t even call it computers then.  We called them calculators and you had a desk calculator.  And before I left -- I was there two or three years before I left, we had electric computers.  But when I first got there, you had one you turned.  You’d take this little thing and turn this thing and then put something in and turn something else.  It wasn’t even electric. 

Callan, B.:	What did the crank do?  Was it like a mechanical -- 

Stanley, H.:	You had to move it.  Lift it over and take it over, and you run another number in.  It’s been so long, I don’t even remember what all we did.  But it was really old, old fashioned now.  I mean, you wouldn’t even consider doing something like that now.  But it was -- we got our work done like that, got our costs and all the things like that done.  You wouldn’t think you could.  [laughs]

[2:19:51]

Callan, B.:	What was your most challenging assignment that you had while working at K-25?  

Stanley, H.:	In K-25, does that include Y-12? 

Callan, B.:	You can lead into Y-12. 

Stanley, H.:	Let’s see.  What was the most what now? 

Callan, B.:	What was your most challenging assignment that you had to do as an individual or like a group assignment?  

Stanley, H.:	I don’t remember anything particular challenging.  We just -- we got a job to do and we just looked at it and took it over.  I don’t think we had anything that looked like we couldn’t do that we ended up doing because I don’t think they chose to give us things like that.  I guess we could have but not -- maybe the engineers would be more apt to get something like that than we would in computer work. 

Callan, B.:	You were telling me before the interview that you were one of the first four people out here in your department. 

Stanley, H.:	From Tennessee Eastman, yeah. 

Callan, B.:	So tell me a little bit more about that again. 

[2:20:48]

Stanley, H.:	Okay.  Well, I was working in Kingsport for Holston Ordinance Works and as I was up there, I was the chief clerk of the medical department.  Well they needed -- they were starting this place down here and Eastman was going to send people down to work eventually at Y-12.  

	So they sent down -- they called -- they got me from Kingsport and three other fellas from another place, one from California, and I don’t know where they all came from but the one I remember best was W. R. Chambers, who was -- he was the oldest of  the group and he was sorta in charge.  I don’t think they said so, but I’m sure he was.  

	We came down there and, as I said, that building over there on the hill, the castle on the hill, and U.S.E.D. building, we were waiting mainly for them to get through Y-12 so we could get an office down there and go down there.  We didn’t do a whole lot of anything toward the product there.  We were just keeping track of what was going on for the company there and find out when we were going to go down to other places.  

[2:22:00]

	Because we weren’t there, but just a few months so -- three or four or five months maybe.  And during that time -- I don’t know if I mentioned it, but during that time, they sent me to Boston, Massachusetts, to work with -- yeah, with the Clinton Engineer work folks up  there, the people who were in that type – that were working for the same project, but I don’t know why they had it up there.

	But I was up there as office manager for about, I don’t know, during the summer months, two or three months, and then I came back down and went into another group of computer work.  And well, computer records, we were keeping track of material really and before and after processing.  That type of thing.  

	But that was sort of fun to get to go to Boston.  I had never been up there and I was right -- our office was right near the commons -- that’s a big park -- I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that.  So I got to see Boston, and that was fun.  But I’d rather get back down to here.   

Male:	Tell me about wiring boards on your computers in the 40s. 

	[2:23:16]

Stanley, H.:	The wiring boards?  Well, I didn’t do too much of that.   

[crew talk]

Callan, B.:	There was -- another thing kind of comes to mind.  I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but you know, you were in the accounting and procurement.  And one of the folks I interviewed was talking about how they needed to procure; I guess several tons of silver.  And they had to call the U.S. Treasury and they had to get so many tons of silver.  The folks at the treasury said, “Well, you know, we measure silver over here by the troy ounce,” you know, it was sort of like this crazy thing.  Do you have any insight about that? 

Stanley, H.:	No.  I didn’t have any connection with that.  Maybe they didn’t trust us.  [laughter]

Callan, B.:	Being that you were out here fairly early, you said it was 1943, you came out here? 

Stanley, H.:	April ‘43.  

Callan, B.:	So you saw -- what do you remember about K-25 while it was under construction?

Stanley, H.:	I wasn’t even aware that they were even doing anything.  I was going to Y-12 and when we went to Y-12, we knew they were working on K-25, building it, because they had some big buildings out there.  And I eventually went there, so I knew what they were.  They had a lot of stuff there.  But we weren’t really concerned about that at that time because -- until I went there and then -- so Y-12 we were just -- I didn’t even know I was going to go to K-25 at that time.  See, so I want -- I didn’t -- and you weren’t supposed to ask questions much.  So I didn’t even learn anything about it much. 

[2:25:04]

Callan, B.:	You’ve been out to the K-25 site, and you worked out at the K-25 site? 

Stanley, H.:	Oh, yeah, I worked out longer than I did -- 

Callan, B.:	When you first went out there, for someone that has never seen it or heard about it before, what were your first thoughts when you saw that K-25 site and how would you describe it to somebody? 

Stanley, H.:	I said it was some of the biggest buildings I had ever seen because they had some huge buildings out there, you know.  You’ve seen it, I presume.  And I thought that’s the biggest building I’ve ever seen.  I guess it was probably one of the biggest buildings.  A lot of people there was thinking that, especially -- they had K-25 one and the K-27, 29, 31, and all that.  And they kept adding them on.  So I was really surprised they keep adding them on.  I didn’t think they’d need that many.  I guess they knew what they was doing.  

Callan, B.:	So, are you familiar at all Happy Valley and the people living out there? 

[2:26:02] 

Stanley, H.:	Yeah, they had people living in trailers and little things like that all around Oak Ridge, especially the ones that were working on the plant, I mean building the plants.  The ones who were coming to work and staying, were trying to get homes in Oak Ridge if they could.  And so when we first -- when I first came here -- of course, I stayed in a dormitory.  They had some men’s dormitories and women’s dormitories, and they had then numbered, M1 and W1, men and women.  And they got 2 and 3 as they got bigger.  

	I got a room in M1, first one to have it, and I happened to get -- they gave us -- if they could, they gave us roommates.  I had a roommate.  The one I had was Fred Uffleman.  I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but he’s a -- he was one of the primary -- early ones, and he got -- he was a good, smart boy too -- well a man but I mean, but he was my roommate for a while.  And I’d write my -- at that time, when I was living in that dorm with him, I don’t know if you’ve contacted him or not, but I’d write -- at that time I was engaged, so I’d write a letter home every night.  And he was sleeping over here and I was over here writing at the desk.  And to imitate him, he’d say, “Christ, Stanley, don’t get that -- where did you get that scratchy pen. You’re keeping me awake.”  I thought well -- he eventually got to be a department head, I’m sure.  I don’t know if he was a division head or not, but he was smart boy. 

[2:27:37] 

Callan, B.:	With all these young folks locked up, the men’s dormitories and women’s dormitories, were there ever -- 

Stanley, H.:	Yeah, separate. 

Callan, B.:	Right.  Were the men going over to the women’s dormitories? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, I heard some rumors about that sort of thing.  I think one of the fellas that had one of the end rooms on one of the dormitories and they had a door, somebody said he had a girlfriend come in, but I don’t know if that was true or not.  I wouldn’t doubt it though, because if it’s a chance of doing it, somebody’s going to find it, I guess, and do, wouldn’t they.  [laughs]

[crew talk]

[End of Tape 2, Begin Tape 3]

[3:00:15]

[crew talk]

Callan, B.:	Let’s go back to talking about working with the computers.  And after you were working with the -- I guess the initial adding machines and electric calculators, what was the first type of computer that you worked on and how did you --

Stanley, H.:	You mean big computers, like electric desk computers -- see I had a manual -- I don’t know what it was, before you turn.  And anyway you had electrical desk computers.  Now are you talking about the big computer? 

Callan, B.:	Yeah, let’s talk about the big computers and what they did. 

Stanley, H.:	I didn’t ever work on those until I got -- well, I guess they were having -- they didn’t have any real big ones when I was working at Y-12.  Huge ones -- the big ones didn’t get till I went to K-25.  And let’s see I went over there in about mid to late 40s, late to mid 40s.  And by then, they were just getting pretty good sized ones.  And they were getting tapes and the key punch and stuff. 

[3:01:40] 

	And then I’d write a program and they’d -- a key punch program and then they’d put it on tape and then they’d run the tape and put in the computer.  And then they’d run the job.  So it was a pretty -- it was a good process, but it took a little longer but much better we used to have like when I was in that first job at American Tobacco Company.  Those were real slow compared to that.  That’s nothing. 

Callan, B.:	What kind of programs did you write? 

Stanley, H.:	What kind of what? 

Callan, B.:	What kind of programs did you write? 

Stanley, H.:	Well, the main thing I did was keeping track of the products, as I recall, the one job I had was keeping track of the unrefined and refined uranium.  And you -- we had records that come in, and we’d put it in and do it.  And then we’d get out reports from that.  And they, of course, I had to write a program out in something like COBOL -- that’s the one thing I remember, but I don’t know a whole lot of them.  And then they’d take it to the key punch.  And they’d key punch that stuff in the thing and they’d put that onto a tape and then they’d put the tape into a computer on a computer, run it in, and then the computer would do the problem solving.  

[3:02:48]

	That’s when you had to have those big rooms, those big computers compared to what I used to have.  Like I said, now they’ve got them down where you can almost get what -- take a whole houseful of room or take like a church room, they can get that now into something this size and do the same thing. 

Callan, B.:	How much material did it take to load a program on some of these initial machines?  You were talking about the key punch and the tape and for someone like me that’s never seen -- you know, I’ve heard of key punch.  That thing that looks like a punch pad.  But I have no idea.  I mean, 128 megabytes on a little tiny chip now.  So, I mean, what was it like loading up those programs?  How intensive was it to write one of these programs?   

[3:03:38]

Stanley, H.:	It was -- it wasn’t fast to write them because you got -- I used -- as I said COBOL towards the need.  I might have had some others simpler than that before that, but that one, I’d have to write it out and then they’d key punch it and then put that on tape and let it go into computer.  I don’t know -- by the time I retired, they were getting computers into some of the offices so you could just key it into the office computer, maybe on your desk, and then somehow they got that downstairs to the mounted tape and then they -- it speeded it up a little bit.  By the time I retired, they -- in ‘80 -- ‘82 or 3, somewhere along in there, they were doing pretty good by then, I think.  They’ve come a long ways in the last 20 years.  I’ve been retired almost 25 years.

	I don’t know what the computer they got now.  They can probably do all the work that we did in that big room in like in this room.  Just imagine.  

Callan, B.:	How many people were in the computer room, running a computer, just loading programs? 

[3:04:51]

Stanley, H.:	Well, by the time I left, they didn’t have too many.  They could have maybe three or four, something like that.  It seems like.  I take jobs down and give it to them, so I didn’t really go in there and do much of it.  I didn’t have any reason to go in there.  But we got our jobs done, and that’s what we wanted. 

Callan, B.:	What sort of roles did women have working out at K-25? 

Stanley, H.:	They tried to treat them even.  Of course, they couldn’t do the heavy work.  Are you talking about in computers or what?

Callan, B.:	In any field -- 

Stanley, H.:	Well, they didn’t put women, they didn’t put women doing work that they couldn’t do, like digging ditches and things like that.  We didn’t have anything like that.  But they -- in the computer -- well, in what other work?  Well, of course, you had women where you would normally have women, like in the cafeterias and things like that.  And so, of course, the medical department, you have a lot of women, or you got a lot of nursing type.  But where the work was what either one could do and it wasn’t manual.  They were pretty well accepted and if they had the talents and the training from college or wherever, or even if they didn’t, if they could do the work and they tested them and checked them, they treated them equally as far as I’m concerned.  

[3:06:24]

	We had -- in the offices where I worked, I guess we had -- I was in computer office there for a while.  I think we had more women than we did men, but the women did key punching and things like that and putting things into the computer.  And we -- I’d have the write to program.  That’s the main thing I did back in those days.  We had some women that were computer programmers too, but I guess the women did more of the actual handling of the cards and things like that.  They key punched cards a lot too.  So we -- because we didn’t’ have any -- I don’t recall having any men key punchers but we might have.  

Callan, B.:	What about minorities at K-25?  Did you have any contact with African-Americans or any other minority?

Stanley, H.:	I never noticed any differences; didn’t see a whole lot of them, really.  Of course, I guess, we didn’t have too many in the work I was in.  In computer work, you didn’t find too many.  I guess we had a few.  We had a few minorities, some Mexicans and some Negroes and -- but I didn’t see that they tried to keep them or not keep them.  It just looked like they treated them like everybody else.  So that was good I thought. 

[3:07:47]

Callan, B.:	Let’s talk about your family life and your wife.  What was life like for your spouse and your children when you were working at -- 

Stanley, H.:	I don’t guess your familiar with the Oak Ridge housing, are you? 

Callan, B.:	I’ve heard a little bit but please -- 

Stanley, H.:	I started out in the dormitories, as I said, and Fred Uffleman was my roommate.  And then I got a -- I got married, and we didn’t have -- I hadn’t gotten an apartment or anything at that time.  So I had -- when we first got married and I brought my wife out here, that was in 1944, we rented a room, an upstairs room up in the E2 building, if you’re familiar with those.  That’s a small one.  E1s are real small.  Living room, bedroom, bath, and a kitchen.  E2 is a two stories right next to it in the big center and it has the same thing.  They have two bedrooms upstairs and then the living room, kitchen downstairs.  

[3:08:48]

	So we rented the -- one of the bedrooms upstairs until we could get an E1, which was the smaller one I was telling you about, the first one.  

	So we roomed with a couple who had no children, an older couple, really.  And then we moved into the E1.  We stayed there until we got -- my wife got pregnant with my first son, who is now 58 year old.  [laughs]  And we moved in next door to the E2.  And then my -- a little later, we moved in from an E -- I don’t know how familiar you are with any of these, but we moved into a B house, which is a pretty good size house.  It has a big living room and a kitchen, bedroom -- two bedrooms and a bath and a dining room.  It wasn’t a dining room at the time we moved in; it was a furnace room, but we got a different heating unit and changed our furnace room into a dining room.  

	So we had no problem with it.  We could get what we needed when we needed it.  And when we got that E1, it was real cheap.  I don’t know what it was.  It didn’t cost much.  [laughs]

Callan, B.:	You moved from an E2 to E1.  

Stanley, H.:	No E1 to an E2.  

Callan, B.:	Oh, okay.  

Stanley, H.:	Because a 2 is bigger. 

Callan, B.:	A 2 is bigger, okay.  

[3:10:11]

	What was your life like with the living conditions out here when --  

Stanley, H.:	It didn’t matter at all; she managed it real well.  In fact, she got a job I forgot how soon after we got married.  She got a job at Y-12, in the accounting department and worked there until I think she was pregnant.  And just as a side thing, one of the fellas she worked for -- worked for at that time, and that’s way back then in the 40s, he’s now in a church my son went to.  And I see him there and he remembers all that from way back there.  I just met him again a while back. 

Callan, B.:	What about your children?  Did they grow up here and go to school here? 

Stanley, H.:	Yes.  We had two boys and I had -- my first one was -- he’s now 58 or so, and the other one is in his late 40s.  And they both live -- well, one of them still lives in Oak Ridge and has a wife and three sons, and one of them is in college.  The other one lives in Clinton, so -- and he has a daughter in college and a younger son that’s in school. 

[3:11:33]

	So I’m lucky to have them that close.  Unfortunately, one’s going to move away to Virginia pretty soon.  He’s a minister and he’s gotta change for a job up there he thought he would like to try.  

Callan, B.:	We’re all the way to the final questions now.  So these are kind of like broad perspective type questions that I’m asking here.  Describe for me what you think future generations should remember about K-25? 

Stanley, H.:	Future generations, our children and -- 

Callan, B.:	Our children and our children’s children. 

Stanley, H.:	Well, I don’t think they’ll think a whole lot about it.  They’ll just remember that their grandfather worked here and grandmother for that matter.  And they’ll think -- I guess they’ll be glad that we did since they both lived here pretty closely and they stayed close to home.  And now, we’re going to lose one of them to Virginia, but I think they like the schools here, I think.  We have good schools here, I believe.  And so they got a good education here.  And one of my sons went to University of Tennessee, and the other one went to -- what was the name of that one?  Anyway he went to another one in Tennessee.  So I’ve got -- and my grandchildren are going to college here.  So I think they’re doing okay and real well I think.  And I’m glad I got them that close because a lot of people I know don’t even get to see their children or grandchildren.  So I’m lucky I got mine close by. 

[3:13:29]

Callan, B.:	Describe for me the great accomplishments here and what should be acknowledged, for example, if this was going to be a paragraph in a history book, how would you summarize K-25? 

Stanley, H.:	K-25 or the whole town?  Just K-25? 

Callan, B.:	Just focus on K-25. 

Stanley, H.:	Okay.  Well, if you look back and see, of course, I don’t know enough about the details of how they got the bomb together or anything, but I know that they started out at Y-12 and they were working on it and then they went to K-25 and they worked on it.  So, but they -- I guess they dropped it, the stuff made from Y-12, mostly.  But then -- anyway, I think they’ll be glad -- history will be glad we did it, just sorry we had to kill so many people but we saved a lot of Americans and I think they -- other countries will realize -- other countries are doing it too now.  They make them, I’m sure.  But they realize now that maybe war is not a good thing and we better try to avoid it because it’s going to hurt anybody that has to get into it because if we get another war, we could use the same type weapons, but they got them now.  So everybody will lose.  I just hope we can keep peace is what I’m hoping. 

[3:14:52]

Callan, B.:	Me too.  Any other topics that I’ve missed that you want to -- oh, I was supposed to ask you about the security drill.  Is that correct?  There was a story you had about some sort of security drill.  

Stanley, H.:	Oh yeah, yeah.  There was -- at one time we were having just a general security drill and there was this one man that I know is in that security group.  And I knew him a long time.  But we were -- some of the workers in one of the buildings at K-25 -- I don’t remember which one, it doesn’t matter.  They were – in the part of the -- the part they were attacking, you know, presumably.  And I saw this fella coming down toward us and I was taking to some of my fellow workers.  And I knew him.  He was in the computer -- I mean he was in the group at security.  So he came up and said, “Hi.”  He said, “Hi,” handed me a paper and he says, “You’ve just been hit over the head.”  And don’t move or say anything for ten minutes.  Then he went off.  So I couldn’t do anything.  And that was just to show they had an attack.  I thought -- that was my son thought was funny.

[3:16:12]

Callan, B.:	How often do they have security drills like that? 

Stanley, H.:	That’s the only one I -- I don’t remember how often they had them, but that’s the only one I got involved.  They’d have them, I don’t know, I’d say.  I don’t even remember.  I guess maybe about every six months or so.  They weren’t all -- maybe not that often.  I’m not sure because that’s the only one I really recollect very well.  

Callan, B.:	Okay.  Any other topics that you want to discuss or interesting stories that you’d like to tell before -- 

Stanley, H.:	I told you about the Captain called me in and wanted to get a report every week, didn’t I?  The ACME Credit Corporation, I told you that.  

Callan, B.:	Yes. 

Stanley, H.:	Let’s see if there’s anything else that would be surprising or unusual.

[3:17:03]

	I can’t think of any off hand.  But we -- we had so many things that happened.  I guess we just took them in stride even though they might have been unusual, they weren’t unusual for us, you know, we were used to things like that.  Let’s see. 

Callan, B.:	Just kind of thinking back to security, were you aware that -- when you came to work out here, were you aware that background checks were being conducted on you? 

Stanley, H.:	Oh yeah.  Yeah, they -- I think they probably told us they would.  The man that interviewed me, they probably said you’ll be investigated.  I think he did because that might turn some people off but it didn’t bother me because I figure if they want to get somebody to work on a government project, and especially if it’s going to be anything that’s vital, they gotta have good security.  And I’d expect them to do that.  In fact, I wouldn’t like it if they didn’t because it would be -- my life’s in danger too if you get some other people here that are not going to be truthful.  

Callan, B.:	Absolutely.  There was one other question I was going to ask you and I completely forgot.  Any other topics that you want to discuss before we wrap up the interview?  Are there any stories that you -- 

Stanley, H.:	Anything else you (indiscernible) -- 

Male:	Well, you had that story about that guy that was (indiscernible), where were you when that guy was saying, whatever it is, it fizzles.  Do you remember that story?  I remember you told me that one time. 

Stanley, H.:	I don’t remember. 

Male:	Fizzes or something like that. 

Stanley, H.:	Where was that?  Where was that?  

Male:	I don’t remember.  I was a story when I was 10 years old.  

Stanley, H.:	I don’t remember.  If somebody asked me that and -- I probably was surprised and didn’t say anything much about it. 

[3:18:53]

Callan, B.:	Okay, well that’s all the questions that I had.  

Stanley, H.:	We took over an hour.  I didn’t think -- 

[off the record]

[on the record]

Stanley, H.:	another with X.  I found out later that T meant tubaloy hexafluoride and X was just what they got out that was refined and they can use for the bomb.  I didn’t tell them that because I didn’t think that was secret. 

Male:	I’m pretty sure that’s not secret. 

Stanley, H.:	If you want to tell them, that’s all right. 

[End of Interview]