Tracy, Joe

              ORAL HISTORY OF JOE TRACY
Interviewed and filmed by Keith McDaniel
August 18, 2011
 
Mr. McDaniel: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is August the 18th, 2011, and I’m talking with Joe Tracy here at my studio here in Oak Ridge. Joe, thanks for taking time to talk to us. Mr. Tracy: You’re quite welcome. Mr. McDaniel: So, let’s start at the beginning. We want to learn about your life, and even your life before you got to Oak Ridge, so why don’t you tell us a little bit about where you were born and raised, and something about your family, and where you went to school. Mr. Tracy: Okay. Well, I was born and raised in a small community outside of Richmond, Kentucky. The little place was called Redhouse, and went to school at a school named Redhouse, the elementary school. I started there in 1941 and graduated from the eighth grade, and we actually graduated then, got our diploma, just like you do in high school these days. In 1948, I went to Central High School for a couple of years, and dropped out and started working on construction, worked on construction for a few years, and joined the Navy then in I guess it was when I was eighteen, just turned eighteen. My dad was in the Navy, my mother was a schoolteacher, so naturally I just thought I would go in the Navy, also. So I joined the Navy when I was eighteen and served two years, got out just before my twenty-first birthday. Sometime shortly after that, I got married. I met this girl while I was home on furlough. Actually, I had known her all my life, but things kind of clicked then. Mr. McDaniel: Sure, sure. You all had grown up. Mr. Tracy: We had grown up some then. We got married and I decided it was time to go back to school, so I got my GED, and I think that was probably in 1955, 1956 or something, and I was working two jobs and freshly married, and I thought, “There’s got to be a better way than this.” So I decided that I’ll just quit one of them and work the night job, which was a projectionist at a theater. Mr. McDaniel: Is that right? Where was that? Mr. Tracy: That was in Richmond. Actually, I worked at a couple of theaters. One was a drive-in theater and one was an indoor theater. It was a good job for going to school because you could study on the job, just make the changeover and you could study on the job. It was somewhat trying to work full time and go to school full time also. But nevertheless, it worked out and I got my degree in Math and Physics in 1959. I came to Oak Ridge then –  Mr. McDaniel: Where did you go to – Mr. Tracy: Oh, I’m sorry. I went to Eastern Kentucky State University, and graduated in ’59, and I had an interview in Oak Ridge. I came to Oak Ridge, ironically, on May 5th, 1959. And that’s the day that Oak Ridge voted to become a city. Mr. McDaniel: Really? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, and convened a government, a self-government, to break away from the government, the Army. Mr. McDaniel: Right. What made you decide to study math and physics? Mr. Tracy: Because I had trouble with social studies. I had to do something that I could do. Mr. McDaniel: Now, had you had any training in that, like in the Navy? Mr. Tracy: I had some training as an electrician in the Navy, and I started off I thought I would become an electrical engineer, which is what I had wanted to do. But then that would have meant I would have had to transfer to University of Kentucky, and the way the job situation was and where I lived, that wasn’t very convenient, so I thought, “Well, I’ll just change my major to Math and Physics,” which I did. I’m not sorry that I stayed in Math and Physics because I liked what I did at Oak Ridge. I remember driving into Oak Ridge the first time. I drove under that underpass at Elza gate, and I drove into what looked like an Army town to me at that time because it still had a lot of barracks, the old Central Cafeteria building was still there. Naturally, I stayed at the Alexander Inn. Mr. McDaniel: Right, and that was ’59? Mr. Tracy: ’59. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Mr. Tracy: I think what was ironic about it, when I drove through there, I thought, “Well, if I get a job here, I’m not going to stay here too long. This place reminds me too much of Bainbridge, Maryland,” where I did my boot camp. Mr. McDaniel: Right. You probably didn’t have fond memories of that place, did you? Mr. Tracy: I didn’t have too fond of memories of that. So, anyway, I interviewed here with the Isotope Enrichment Group at ORNL, although we was physically located at Y-12, and accepted a job and moved here in September of ’59. I started working at the Isotope Enrichment Group, and I worked there actually in the same building for forty years. Mr. McDaniel: Is that right? Mr. Tracy: I never changed buildings, I never changed division. Mr. McDaniel: What was that? Was that Beta-3? Mr. Tracy: That was Beta-3, 9204-3, in the Calutron Group. The calutrons had a very interesting history, and it’s well known they helped bring to end World War II and saved countless lives in doing so. After World War II, then they started that Stable Isotope Separation Program, basically, in the pilot plant in 9731, and by 1959, it was evident that the pilot plant wasn’t going to be sufficient to furnish isotopes that was needed for research, medicine, industrial uses, so that’s when they expanded to 9204-3. We operated twenty-four calutrons at Beta-3 and four calutrons at 9731, the Pilot Plant. While the calutrons brought to an end, or helped bring to an end World War II and saved countless lives, it’s made a huge contribution since then in stable isotopes. Many of the isotopes are used for precursors for radioisotopes, which is used in medicines, both treatment and diagnostics, and it’s used in basic research and industry, and some of the things that you would think about for more of the industry are something like your GPS is made possible with the atomic clocks that are put into the communication satellite. Mr. McDaniel: Right. I want to get into that more in a minute, but I want to go back to you moving here. Let’s talk about your personal life a little bit, and then we’ll talk some about your work life. Mr. Tracy: Okay. Mr. McDaniel: So, you moved here in ’59, September of ’59. Mr. Tracy: Right. Mr. McDaniel: You brought your wife down, I imagine, then. Now, did you have any children at that time? Mr. Tracy: I had two children. Mr. McDaniel: Did you? How old were they? Mr. Tracy: Oh, they were five, just turned five, and two. Mr. McDaniel: Five and two. Mr. Tracy: Yeah. Mr. McDaniel: Of course you stayed at Alexander [Inn] for a few days, but where did you live? Where did you move into when you brought the family? Mr. Tracy: Well, just before I brought my family, I came down and worked a couple of weeks and found a place to move to, and, at that time, I stayed in one of the old barracks across from where the Central Cafeteria was. There was still a barracks there. I spent a couple of weeks over in the old barracks, and then my wife came down. We moved into a little “A” house over on Georgia Avenue, and lived there a couple of years, and then moved to Thayer Lane for I guess two years. Mr. McDaniel: Thayer Lane? Mr. Tracy: Thayer Lane. Mr. McDaniel: Okay, Thayer Lane. Right. Mr. Tracy: Yep, and then from there, we bought a “B” house over across – no, I’m sorry, the “B” house was on Thayer Lane – Mr. McDaniel: Was it? Mr. Tracy: – that we bought. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Mr. Tracy: I can’t remember the other place. Mr. McDaniel: That’s okay. That’s all right. Mr. Tracy: But, anyway, we bought that and lived there till 1968, and then we bought a house out in the West end of Oak Ridge on Nebraska Avenue. Mr. McDaniel: Now, I guess ’68 or so, that was really when the West end was starting to – Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. Mr. McDaniel: – develop, and they were building new houses, and things such as that, is that right? Mr. Tracy: Actually, the house that we moved into was the first house built on Nebraska Avenue. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, really? Mr. Tracy: They had just cut through there. The street wasn’t done when we bought the lot, and we built it in ’68 and moved into there, and lived there until 2005, and my wife had gotten to where she was having difficulties getting up and down the steps, and this was a split foyer so there was nothing to do but just move. We had friends at Avalon. We looked at places in Oak Ridge and we had friends that lived in Avalon, so – Mr. McDaniel: Out in Lenoir City? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, out from Lenoir City. It’s got a Lenoir City address, but it’s out from Lenoir City. So we found this place that was ideal for her in that everything that she needed was on the main level and it had bedroom, bathrooms, kitchen, garage, sunroom, everything she needed was on one level. There’s two levels to it, a lower level, but she put me down there most times. [laughter]
Mr. McDaniel: [laughter] There you go. Mr. Tracy: If I didn’t behave, that’s where I went. Mr. McDaniel: You had what they call a ‘man cave’ in the house. Mr. Tracy: Yeah, but she passed away. It’ll be five years this December. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, is that right? Okay. Mr. Tracy: I thought about moving back to Oak Ridge, which I never thought I would leave Oak Ridge, I never intended to, but it’s just worked out that way. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Now, are you a golfer? Mr. Tracy: Yes. Mr. McDaniel: So that’s a good place to go golfing, isn’t it? Mr. Tracy: Yeah. Well, I’m a golfer more or less. Mr. McDaniel: Right, right. You like to play golf. Mr. Tracy: I like to play golf. Mr. McDaniel: There you go. Mr. Tracy: I used to play fairly well when I belonged to Oak Ridge Country Club, and I was out there for years and years. Mr. McDaniel: Yeah, well tell me about that. We’re going to talk a little bit about when you all were in Oak Ridge and some of the things that you and your wife were involved in. Tell me about that. Mr. Tracy: Well, that was one of the main things that we were involved in, one of the reasons that we moved on the West end of town, because we were members. We had a family membership at Oak Ridge Country Club, and it got to where my wife started playing, she enjoyed it, so she played out there, so that was ideal, and it was somewhat, I guess, the daycare for my children when they were growing up, because they loved it. Billie and I both worked at that time, when they were about twelve or so, and Edna Barker, a friend of ours, had a son named Richard. And some adult had to be with them, and she would go out there and stay all day with them. Mr. McDaniel: At the pool and at the Country Club? Mr. Tracy: No, I mean playing golf. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, is that right? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, they’d play golf. They’d play thirty-six holes a day, walk around – Mr. McDaniel: Wow. Mr. Tracy: – so they were out there every day. Mr. McDaniel: Do they still play golf? Mr. Tracy: They still play golf. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, well, good. Mr. Tracy: They’re both pretty good golfers. They could be probably better than they are if they’d practiced a lot. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. We could all be better than we are. Mr. Tracy: Yeah. Mr. McDaniel: Well, good. So, you all were involved in the Country Club. What other things were you involved in in town? Mr. Tracy: Well, not much of anything socially, I mean other than the Country Club and just friends, and we liked to go on vacation. Actually, later on in our lives, we got to where we’d go on vacation with a group of people, four of us, and all four of us, all four couples, played golf, so we would go on vacation and enjoyed that. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, sure. Sure, that’s kind of like your own little tour group, wasn’t it? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, something like that, and both my children went to Tennessee Tech and graduated from there, and one of them works in Chattanooga for Mueller Company. That’s Terry, that’s the oldest one, and the younger son works at Y-12. He and his wife both work at Y-12. That’s pretty much our life up until after my wife died, and then I don’t do much of anything anymore, just play golf and – Mr. McDaniel: Just play golf and hang out, huhn? Mr. Tracy: – hang out on, as I would refer to it, the ‘reservation.’ Mr. McDaniel: Sure. My father-in-law, he lives in Tellico Village, and my mother-in-law, she passed away about a year and a half ago, so I know what you went through, you know? It was being by yourself for the first time in a long, long time, wasn’t it? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, we were like just a little being married fifty-two years. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, is that right? Mr. Tracy: So we were married a long time. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. Well, let’s talk about your job. Let’s talk about when you first came in ’59, what were your duties? What did you do? I’ll tell you what, before we do that, why don’t you talk a little bit about what the Isotope Enrichment Program was. Mr. Tracy: Okay. Well, the Isotope Enrichment Program was a use of the calutrons for separating stable isotopes, and for people not familiar with an isotope, it’s an atom, the same element, it has the same atomic number but different atomic weight, which means it’s got the same number of protons but more neutrons. Chemically, it’s the same for all isotopes of that element. It makes very little difference chemically, although there’s a slight difference it could be, but from the – Mr. McDaniel: Just so if people, like me, don’t understand that, but I do know the story of uranium separation, and that’s what the calutron was invented for, was to separate the uranium 235 from uranium 238, and the 235 was the one that was desired, is that correct? Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. Mr. McDaniel: What is it, 97.7 percent, or 99.7 percent of your regular uranium is 238, and that .3 percent is the 235 that you want to separate out, so it had a different weight, is that correct? Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. The atomic weight is 238 and 239, and the way the machine works is it doesn’t matter whether it’s uranium or a stable element, that you put the material in the source unit, hinge it up and vaporize it, and then it transfers from a charge container or feed container to an ionization chamber, where you ionize the material and accelerate in a strong magnetic field. Any ion moving in a magnetic field will be bent into a radius, depending on its mass and energy and the magnetic field strength. And since the magnetic field is constant for all ions, and the accelerating voltage or the energy is the same for all particles being accelerated, then the radius of curvature depends on the mass itself, and that’s what separates the material. Mr. McDaniel: Sure, because one goes, when it comes around that C shape, that curve, one goes up top, and then one that’s a little bit heavier will just come right under it, is that correct? Mr. Tracy: Well, the one is a little bit lighter. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, right. That’s what I meant. The heavier, in other words, the lighter one goes up and the heavier one goes down, and that’s how you get – Mr. Tracy: No, no. Mr. McDaniel: No, is that not right? Mr. Tracy: Just the reverse. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, just the reverse. Okay. Mr. Tracy: The heavier one goes up. Mr. McDaniel: Right, because of the magnetic field, I guess. Mr. Tracy: Right. Mr. McDaniel: Okay. So, they separate at the top – Mr. Tracy: They separate. Mr. McDaniel: – because of the different weight, and that’s how you get them separated. Mr. Tracy: Yeah, and you can separate stable isotopes the same way. There’s several things that has to be changed for each element that you run, but it doesn’t matter how many isotopes the element has; it separates discreetly each one. It can have two isotopes or it can have ten isotopes, which is what ten has, that’s a maximum, stable isotopes. But it separates all of them and collects them individually, so that’s the program that I worked on. To start with, when I came to Oak Ridge, the first job I had was to actually do the operation of the calutrons, run the power supply, the controls for the calutron, and that involved shift work, which I wasn’t real fond of, but that’s the way it was. I worked that for a while, but only for a short period of time, and then I went on day shift and started off mostly in design of collectors. I’d been here about five months when I started that job. Mr. McDaniel: Right, because the collectors were generally different for each one that you did. Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. Each element had a different collector arrangement, and so I designed those, and then, later on, I was put in charge of the calutron operations, and I did that for some time. And then, in 1979 – 1980 it was – why, I became Program Manager for the Isotope Enrichment Group, and I remained in that position until I retired in 1998. Mr. McDaniel: Okay. Mr. Tracy: Excuse me, 1999. Mr. McDaniel: 1999, okay. So, talk a little bit about the different elements that you worked with, and, without getting too technical, some of the uses of some of the isotopes. Mr. Tracy: Well, let me start off by talking about some of the medical uses, like thallium 203. It’s used for heart imaging. In fact, I’ve had a few of those scans. And then technetium, everybody is familiar with technetium. It’s one of the highest used of isotopes for imaging that there is. When they started making technetium 99 metastable, it was made from proton radiation, molybdenum 98, and that’s how technetium got started, and then from the 98, it would decay to the technetium metastable. Sometime later, they found out different ways to do it, more efficient ways to make it, and so the calutrons no longer did that. Mr. McDaniel: So let me ask you a question. So what you did is you drew out from these elements molecules that created these different stable isotopes, is that correct? Mr. Tracy: Right. Well, actually, you could do it as either elemental, it could be a molecule, or it could be elemental. The actual beam that was separated was elemental material, and then it would be – once it was separated, then it would convert it to some chemical element, or what was stable. You didn’t want to store something that was unstable and that picks up more or something like that, so you’d try to pick a stable compound as storage. So there was a number of isotopes that were used for precursors – zinc 68, thallium – I can’t think of the names of them anymore, but there was a number of them. Actually, most radioisotopes that are used for medicine, a lot of them were made from stable isotopes that was used as precursors for making that. And then some of the isotopes are just used for basic research. One of the things that a large number of them was used for, almost all of them, is back in the early ’60s was one of the reasons that we had the expansion program, was for determining the neutron cross-section of all the isotopes of every element, and that was important in a lot of design, reactor designs, and I’m not sure what all, but it was for that, plus there was a lot of just basic research done from stable isotopes. I mean there’s numerous papers that have been written using stable isotope for research programs. One of the things, as I think I mentioned earlier, is the atomic clock or timing devices for communication satellites, and we’re all familiar with the GPSs and cell phones, and things of that nature, and that’s rubidium 87. So, unfortunately, the end of the program was, after the early ’60s, while the program was up, you know, it would be at sixteen calutrons running to zero, and the amount determined primarily on what we produced, plus what the Russians produced. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, I see. Mr. Tracy: They got in the business, and actually, they could undercut us on price because we had to determine a price on a full cost recovery basis, exactly what it cost us to produce it, that’s what we had to get for that. And it was pretty easy to calculate the Russian price; just take twenty percent off of there, and that’s what it was. [laughter] Mr. McDaniel: That’s what it was. Exactly.  
Mr. Tracy: Of course, business people, being what they are, they wanted the cheapest material they could get. Mr. McDaniel: Now, was this – I mean if they got it from you, was it, I mean, inordinately expensive? I mean was it real expensive, or what – Mr. Tracy: Yes. Some of it. It depends on the isotope itself. For example, you talked about uranium, that the isotopes of interest was U-235 and just .73 percent. Well, most of it is of no interest. The 238 is of no interest. Many of the stable isotopes are the same way, but some of them, it’s more abundant, it’s of no interest, because if they were of interest, then you could just use the element. You don’t need to separate it. But those that were real small and abundant were very hard to separate and you didn’t get much of them, so that made it expensive. And then when we were doing full-cost recovery, if an isotope wasn’t used, all the cost had to be charged to the one that was – Mr. McDaniel: That was used. Right. Mr. Tracy: – and that made it inordinately expensive for some isotopes. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. But at one point, your group ended up taking every element, is that correct, separating every element? Mr. Tracy: Every element that was not mono-isotopic. Mr. McDaniel: Right, right, that had more than one isotope. Mr. Tracy: Right. We separated some of the rare gases or some of the gases, but that’s not an efficient way to do it. There’s much more efficient ways to do that than use the calutron, like the noble gases, because collection is a difficult process. You can’t keep it. You can do some ion implantation and trap a little of it, but you can’t keep most of it, and you can use thermal diffusion or columns to do that much more reasonable. But all the isotopes, metallic isotopes, and those that were non-gases, we did separate all of those. Mr. McDaniel: Right. So you did this, and so it was a pretty heavy, ongoing production at the time, before the Russians started doing it, right? Mr. Tracy: That’s correct, and there – Mr. McDaniel: Was there a lot of demand for it, because this was the only place that it was being done, is that correct, in Oak Ridge? Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. Well, there was a lot of demand, and part of that demand also went away, too, because when the stable isotopes were first separated, everybody wanted some for research purposes. After some period of time, the new had worn off and they went on to something else. They quit using quite as much, so it basically turned out to be that mostly later on it was those that were used for precursors for medical isotopes, or something like rubidium 87, or some industrial applications. There’s still some research programs that use them, but not as much as they did. Mr. McDaniel: Now, were you in charge of packaging and shipping those? Mr. Tracy: No. Mr. McDaniel: Somebody else there, right? Mr. Tracy: Someone else did that. Mr. McDaniel: Right, but that was a complicated process, too, wasn’t it?  Mr. Tracy: Well, it was somewhat complicated. You had to be extremely careful and not cross anything up and weigh them out very accurately, because some of them were inordinately expensive, and if a customer wanted three milligrams, he didn’t want two-and-a-half, he wanted three, if he was spending a few thousand dollars a milligram. So, yeah, it wasn’t technically that difficult, it was just tedious, and it had to be accurate. But the shipping was done in a different facility. In the 1990s, when things started deteriorating as far as the whole Isotope Program was concerned, we moved all the Isotope Program to Beta-3, the shipping, the conversion of, as we refer to it, from special materials, that part of it, we moved it all to Beta-3 and put it under one administration where it was more efficient, and that way we didn’t have four buildings to keep up, because Beta-3 was a big building. We certainly didn’t need all of it for stable isotope separation. Mr. McDaniel: Now, when things were going really strong, let’s say in the ’60s, how many employees, how many people worked on the isotope separation? Mr. Tracy: Well, there was about sixty technical people, and about that many craft people, and when we were running later on, running eight calutrons, we had about twenty of each, so we cut down. Mr. McDaniel: So it eventually just kind of dwindled down as the demand and the production went down, of course. Now, did there come a point where you just stopped? Mr. Tracy: Right. Mr. McDaniel: Okay, tell me about that. Mr. Tracy: In 1998, they shut it down, they stopped it. So I think we made one separation, I can’t remember what day that was, but we made one second-pass separation, and that was strontium 84, and that was the final separation that was made. Mr. McDaniel: Now, why was it stopped, just because the Russians were doing it so much cheaper, or were these things that, once you used them, you could use them over again? Mr. Tracy: Well, some of them you could use them over again. Mr. McDaniel: Right, and I imagine they would last a long time. Mr. Tracy: Yeah. We had a loan program, where we’d loan them out to research facilities, and if we could use them over again, they would return them. All the research facility would pay for was just the processing to put them back in the same condition they were when they got them. If they contaminated them or subjected them to a beam that caused them to be radioactive, then they paid for the sample, or if they depleted it, then they would be charged for the depletion, what it happens to be as far as isotopic depletion, what a lower assay material would be worth. A lot of them was done that way, and then the loan program basically went away, also. They got to where they charged way too much for that. Mr. McDaniel: Right. This may sound like a silly question, but what did it look like? Mr. Tracy: Well, it looked just like any other element. I mean once you separated an isotope – Mr. McDaniel: It just looked like whatever it was, right? Mr. Tracy: Whatever it was, or the compound of whatever it was. I mean, you know, a zinc 68 sample, for example, enriched would look just like a zinc 64, which would look just like zinc. I mean, it would look the same. It just depends on the chemical form that it was in. And that’s one of the reasons that you had to be careful when you’re shipping. You can’t physically tell the difference, so you can easily cross-contaminate. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. Yeah, exactly. So the project was shut down in ’98, you said, basically. Mr. Tracy: ’98. Mr. McDaniel: So what’s been happening with the project since then? Mr. Tracy: Well, for the most part, they’ve been distributing materials out of inventory, and we did build up a fairly large inventory back in the ’60s when they were trying to have large quantities for neutron cross-section studies. So, we had been distributing materials out of that, still do, and some of them have been depleted, so that’s how we operate now. Although we do have a program going now – it’s one of the reasons I’m going back to the Lab – is to try to build a new separator system. We’re in the process of doing that at the present. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, is that right? So there could be the need for it once again. Mr. Tracy: Right. Mr. McDaniel: There could be a need for separation of these isotopes. Mr. Tracy: Well, actually, there’s a need for it right now, because there’s a number of isotopes that have been completely depleted and a demand for them, but there’s no place to get them, and the Russians have about shut down. They’ve quit providing them so things are getting more difficult now. Mr. McDaniel: Right. You would think, with new technology, that you’d be able to do it easier, or was the calutron just way ahead of its time? Mr. Tracy: Partly. It was way ahead of its time in a sense. In many cases, you can do it easier. There’s different process that will do it much more efficiently and much easier. On the other hand, there’s a group of elements that so far no one has found any other way to do it other than electromagnetic separation and it doesn’t have to be a calutron. In fact, it won’t be a calutron. It’ll be an electromagnetic separation facility of some kind. In fact, the word calutron has gotten to be pretty sensitive. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, yeah. Mr. Tracy: The calutron itself isn’t, but if you start going into the details of it, technical details, that’s –  Mr. McDaniel: It’s still classified, isn’t it? Mr. Tracy: It’s not classified, but it’s what’s referred to as export control – Mr. McDaniel: Oh, really? Mr. Tracy: – so anything that’s technical, you can’t let it get out. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. I understand. Mr. Tracy: The separation itself is unclassified nuclear information, so that’s controlled, also, unclassified controlled nuclear information. So you have to be careful what you talk about now. It was just completely declassified until Desert Storm, and when they had Desert Storm, they found that they were actually separating uranium using that process, so that changed everything when that happened. Mr. McDaniel: Exactly. Right. It’s kind of hard to put the cat back in the bag once it’s – Mr. Tracy: Yeah, that’s right. Mr. McDaniel: – been out for a while, though, isn’t it? Mr. Tracy: Yeah, they can’t do that. Actually, you can’t classify something once it’s been declassified. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, is that right? Mr. Tracy: No, you can’t do that. If it’s been declassified, it’s out. You can call it unclassified nuclear information, controlled nuclear information, or export controlled information, and do that, but you can’t reclassify it. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Now, let me ask you a question. It seems to me like some of the things you were talking about, the process for separating these, sounds an awful lot like the process of the Spallation Neutron Source. I mean, you know, you have an accelerator, you have an ion stream, things such as that. Is that just me making a giant leap, or was this process kind of a forerunner of what could be done with an SNS type operation? Mr. Tracy: Not really. They knew how to accelerate ion beams much before the calutrons. In fact, they were accelerated by separate accelerators, but the cyclotron, for example, that was actually used to do the preliminary work for the calutrons. At Berkeley, they used the magnets from the calutrons, so as far as acceleration is concerned, the calutrons, I guess, drew on the accelerator knowledge as opposed to accelerators – well, let me back up. They drew on each other because ion source units and things for accelerators, and some of them are in those four calutrons, and there’s similarities there that they used. So, I guess you drew on each other’s knowledge background. Mr. McDaniel: You know, a lot of things have been done at the Lab and in Oak Ridge over the years, I mean a lot of research, a lot of creative inventions or discoveries have been made. When I interviewed Alvin Weinberg before he passed away, and he said this many times and I asked him, I said, “What are the things that stand out?” and he said, “I think when I stand at the pearly gates,” he says, “The thing that I’m going to be most proud of was being able to – medical isotopes,” you know, is that. So, the work that you’ve done, the work with your group and you’ve done, has literally changed medicine.
Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. Mr. McDaniel: I mean it literally has changed medicine, and literally has saved millions of lives. Mr. Tracy: That’s correct. It saved millions – the calutrons – the article that I wrote and I was telling you about was named “The Last Curtain Call,” and that’s kind of the way I ended it up. It saved countless lives because we didn’t have to invade Japan. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Mr. Tracy: No telling how many people would have died there, and it saved countless lives in medical isotopes with what we did there. So, if it’s, which it is the last curtain call, you’d give it a standing ovation, I think. Mr. McDaniel: Right. Mr. Tracy: So, I’m really proud, I mean, not of me, but I’m proud of having the opportunity to work in a facility like that and with the people that made that possible, and what we did there in those forty years that I was there. So I feel fortunate to have been able to do that. Mr. McDaniel: Right, and that was part of the, as people say, when Oak Ridge, after the War, turned its swords into plow shares, didn’t it? That was part of that process. Mr. Tracy: And I think that’s as good an example as you could find in Oak Ridge, I mean actually using basically the same technology and what they were able to do with it, so I think it’s probably as good an example as you can find at the Lab. Mr. McDaniel: Right. All right, is there anything else you want to talk about? We can talk all afternoon. I’ve got all afternoon. Mr. Tracy: Well, I’m not much of a talker myself. Mr. McDaniel: You did a fine job. Any other stories? Hey, this is a great opportunity. This will last forever. Mr. Tracy: This will last – Mr. McDaniel: This will last a lot longer than you and me, so if there’s anything you want to say, now’s the time to say it. Mr. Tracy: I hope it lasts a lot longer than me, because I’m getting a few years on me. Have you had the opportunity to talk to John Gillette? Mr. McDaniel: You know, I’ve interviewed John a couple of times, but not for this process, and I need to put him on the list. John’s an interesting fellow. Mr. Tracy: Yeah, he is. Mr. McDaniel: Yeah, he really is. Mr. Tracy: He was my first Division Director. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, was he? Mr. Tracy: Yeah. Actually, I think when the Isotope Division was formed, I believe it was in – I don’t know. I forgot. Anyway, when it was formed, up until that time, the calutron operation came under Y-12 administration and when they formed the Isotope Division, John Gillette was the director of it, and the Stable Isotopes and Radioisotopes made up the Division. Mr. McDaniel: And moved to the lab, moved to ORNL? I mean – Mr. Tracy: Well, administratively. Mr. McDaniel: – administratively. Right. Mr. Tracy: Administratively, it went to ORNL. Mr. McDaniel: Right, but it stayed on site at Y-12. Mr. Tracy: Yeah, it stayed on site at Y-12 – Mr. McDaniel: And still there. Mr. Tracy: – and still there. Mr. McDaniel: That’s right. Mr. Tracy: I don’t know how long it’ll be there. Well, it’ll probably be there, the facility, for a long time because it’s on the national historic registry list of nuclear facilities, so that kind of means it’s going to stay there. If you look at the footprint of Y-12, all the new facilities they’ve got planned, and all of them that have been going away, the old ones, the long-range forecast still shows 9204-3 as still being there. Mr. McDaniel: Exactly. Well, all I know is when I went in there some five or six years ago to shoot video, I think you were probably my guide at that time. I went in with D. Ray [Smith], and I think I was one of the first outside videographers to go in there and shoot video. I tell people when I walked in there it looked like I was walking into 1945. I mean, it did. It looked like I was walking into 1945. Mr. Tracy: Well, you were walking into 1945. I mean there hasn’t been that much change.  Mr. McDaniel: Sure. Exactly. I tell people, going down into the basement and looking at the packing materials that still have the big tubes in them that say, “Clinton Engineer Works, January 1943,” you know, something like that. Mr. Tracy: Oh, there’s so much of that. In fact, that’s what kept us operational, is that all the spare parts and all we salvaged, they would haul them out during the day, and we’d haul them back during the night. Mr. McDaniel: Is that right? Mr. Tracy: That’s right. Mr. McDaniel: Now, I guess that’s a question, you know, if a calutron went down and you needed a new part for it, I mean is that something that you can get now or would have to have it made? Mr. Tracy: Oh no, you would have to have it made. Mr. McDaniel: Right. It’s not anything standard, nothing you can go to the electrical store and buy to put in there hardly. Mr. Tracy: The only thing that you can – well, yeah, there is things that are standard, capacitors and transformers, although a lot of them are special build, but you can buy a lot of those, and it comes out of the power supply, even some of the tubes. I don’t know if they still make them or not; they were some kind of radio transmission tubes. Some of those were used in the calutrons, I think, and I’m not sure of that, but I think some of it is standard. But some of the surroundings and things like that was all made – Mr. McDaniel: Custom. Mr. Tracy: – for the calutron, but there’s enough ceramics out there to build a few calutrons. Mr. McDaniel: Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure there are. All right, Joe. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. I appreciate it. Mr. Tracy: You’re quite welcome. I enjoyed it. Mr. McDaniel: I’m sure people that watch this will learn a lot about the – I hope they learn a little bit about the technical aspects of it, but I hope they learn a lot about the value of the Stable Isotope Program. Mr. Tracy: Yeah, I do, too. I mean if I could portray anything, any message at all, I think the importance of the stable isotope and the Stable Isotope Program is what I would like to portray. Mr. McDaniel: Sure, and you don’t have any regrets about leaving Kentucky and coming to Tennessee? Mr. Tracy: No. When I came down here, as I was saying, I didn’t think I would stay here very long, but I don’t think I’ll go anywhere else. I mean I may not live in the city of Oak Ridge, but I’m an Oak Ridger, always an Oak Ridger. People ask me where I’m from and I tell them Oak Ridge, so I’m still an Oak Ridger, and if it wasn’t for the moving, I just don’t want to move again. [laughter] Mr. McDaniel: You’d come back, wouldn’t you?
Mr. Tracy: I’d probably come back. Well, I couldn’t sell my house. You can’t sell anything now. Mr. McDaniel: You can’t sell anything now. Mr. Tracy: Let me put it this way: I would not move out of Oak Ridge had it not been necessary, and we just didn’t find a place here to stay that was suitable for the situation. Mr. McDaniel: Sure. All right. Well, Joe, thank you very much. Mr. Tracy: You’re quite welcome. [end of recording]