Kemper, Janette

              
ORAL HISTORY OF JANETTE KEMPER
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
December 15, 2011

 
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is December the 15th, 2011 and I am at the home of Mrs. Janette Kemper here in Oak Ridge.  And Mrs. Kemper, thank you for taking time to talk to us.  Why don't you tell me -- let's start out at the very beginning.  Why don't you tell me where you were born and raised and something about your family?
MRS. KEMPER: Well, I was born in Atlanta, Georgia and I grew up there -- went through the schools and our high school there was Girls High School.  It was the second highest-rated school in the country.  They worked us to death, but I got a real good education there.  And we came up here on D-Day, my brother and I did.  My father had been working here for a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh is that right? Here at Oak Ridge?
MRS. KEMPER: He had come up because some other people he knew in Atlanta had told him about the jobs and they had come up here.  So, he came up here to work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, in Atlanta, you grew up in Atlanta?
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you had a brother.  
MRS. KEMPER: Brother and a sister.
MR. MCDANIEL: You had a brother and a sister.  
MRS. KEMPER: Mm-hm.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what did your father do in Oak Ridge?
MRS. KEMPER: He worked for Stone and Webster in engineering and drafting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: And your mother?
MRS. KEMPER: Mama didn't work until his job was up, and he was going back to Atlanta and look or either do some type work that he had done, sales work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And so, she went to work out at the plant about 1946.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you grew up in Atlanta and what was it like growing up in a -- were you like in Atlanta or in the suburbs?
MRS. KEMPER: In Atlanta and we had relatives there. My great-aunt was there and her cousins and my first cousin, who has lived in Knoxville since 1963.  He lived around the corner and he and my brother were one and a half and two and a half years younger than I was and they nearly drove me crazy.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs]  For those who are listening or watching this, I do want to make mention that occasionally; you might hear a little tune in the background.  It is nearly Christmas, and somewhere in the house is something playing a tune and we can't find it.
MRS. KEMPER: It's Georgie the Ghost, I tell you.
MR. MCDANIEL: We can't find it or can't find it to turn it off.  So, it's just very faint in the background.  So, you grew up in Atlanta there and you went to the girls' school, the Girls High School.
MRS. KEMPER: I graduated on June the 5th and came up here June the 6th, 1944.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: The next day.
MR. MCDANIEL: And your father, you said he came up a year before that, though, didn't he?
MRS. KEMPER: Yes, and when he was finally able to get a house for us, we moved here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did he do here in Oak Ridge?
MRS. KEMPER: What did I do?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, what did your father do?
MRS. KEMPER: He was in engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: He was an engineer for Stone and Webster, who was --
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, he did drafting.  He didn't have a degree, but he worked in engineering, just like I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Later.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you came up in '40-
MRS. KEMPER: 1944.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1944.
MRS. KEMPER: On D-Day.
MR. MCDANIEL: On D-Day.  Is that right?  You and your brother?
MRS. KEMPER: Mm-hm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what about your mother, was she here or --
MRS. KEMPER: She and my sister came up the next day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they?
MRS. KEMPER: And Daddy was already- I guess, Daddy came with them.  He went home, you know, to shut out the house in Atlanta.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They were going -- well, they had rented it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.  So, you came up with your brother.  Now, where did you stay that first night?
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, at the house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you --
MRS. KEMPER: On Robertsville Road.
MR. MCDANIEL: Your father had already gotten a house for you?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.  Where was it on Robertsville?
MRS. KEMPER: 432.
MR. MCDANIEL: 432?
MRS. KEMPER: Mm-hm.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what kind of house was it?  
MRS. KEMPER: A TDU.  It was three bedrooms on one side, which we had and then one bedroom on the other end.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right, so you graduated high school.  You and your brother came here and did you try to find a job?  Is that what you came here for or just to be with your family or --
MRS. KEMPER: Well, we came up, I graduated from high school.  My brother graduated from junior high, and my sister from elementary school.  So, it was good break.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  That was a good break.
MRS. KEMPER: So, I went out to look for a job on the 16th of June and Dr. Armisted interviewed me.  The head of Vacuum Testing -- Fontaine C. Armisted, and he said, "Did you graduate from high school?"  Yes.  "What did you take?" And I reeled off a couple of things.  He said, "Did you take physics?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "You're hired."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Just like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, my goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, me.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, where did you go to work?
MRS. KEMPER: At K-25 in Vacuum Testing.  And oh, the people you met.  Some of them didn't know what indoor plumbing was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Some of them didn't know how to use the telephone.  Some of them had two and three Ph.Ds., and you didn't know who you were talking to.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: And it was quite a shock to come up here because I had three gangs in Atlanta -- the neighborhood gang, the school gang and the church gang.  And I came up here, didn't know a soul.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, I'm sure that was tough, wasn't it?
MRS. KEMPER: And all that mud and dirt and buses and that old coal furnace in the living room.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet it was like going back in time for you, wasn't it?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because it was fairly primitive here in Oak Ridge during those --
MRS. KEMPER: What?
MR. MCDANIEL: It was fairly primitive here in Oak Ridge.
MRS. KEMPER: That's an understatement.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: If there was one thing about it, we could get around on a bus.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, tell me a little bit about your job.  Tell me -- you're vacuum leak testing, which meant you were --
MRS. KEMPER: Well --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- checking for leaks in the pipes?
MRS. KEMPER: Well, the first thing was training over at the Ford Bacon Davis Building.  We called it the “Fud, Bud, and Dud building”. There were, oh, about 30 in the class, and I don't know what they did with the other women.  I guess, they put the men up on the cell floor to start working, but there were no facilities for the women.  They put me there in the basement to answer Dr. Zuhr's telephone.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. KEMPER: Dr. Zuhr was from Germany and he was fussing one day about the water on the woodwork and somebody said, "What is he saying?"  I said, "He's saying the water in the valve won't work."  They cut that valve out and half that valve was solid.  I never worked much --I'd just been there a couple of weeks.  And then a tall, red-headed man named Jack Townsend came over and says, "Are you familiar with drawings, plans?"  I said, "Yeah, my dad had worked in engineering.  "Well, come over here and look at these things."  And he wanted me to take some information off.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: So, that was the first real work I did there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And then they took the women up on the cell floor and assigned everybody -- I guess, you know about the cells where they worked in, the different sections.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't you talk about that a little bit?
MRS. KEMPER: Huh?
MR. MCDANIEL: Explain that a little bit.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, there were one million miles of pipe in that plant and that's what I was checking on when that one day, going through those drawings, was picking out where the field welds were because that's where they had to check and make sure they didn't leak.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And so they had the mass spectrometer in there that we called the leak detector and then probed around -- they put the G24, which was helium, into the pipes and then they would probe around -- well, they had to pump the pressure, the air pressure inside the pipes down to microns and things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And then they would probe around the pipe welds to see if they were picking up any helium.  And I think I told you, they had a little song they used to sing about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: And so then when they found a leak, they put Apiezon Q on it, which was some black putty that they made over in England, and it was quite expensive and they all had a, you know, a log book there to tell where it was put because the gas, when it was put in, it would eat it up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: So, they had to make notes of that and make sure that it was all removed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And then welded properly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: So one day, the boss, Vern Gritzer, came in and he was our supervisor and he says, "We're going to pull you out of here and put you out in a little office there where the supervisors, singular or plural, had desks to work on.  It was on the outside edge or the inside edge of the cell floor.  And he said, "We've got so much confusion around here, we're going to put a clerk on each shift to help with some of the running around that the supervisors don't have time to do."
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: Okay.  I worked on that a while.  And the situations I got into.  Now, I've just turned 18.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I was 17 when I went to work.  Oh, I didn't tell you about that.  Here came the FBI man.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay?
MRS. KEMPER: He said, "You can't work here, you're not 18."  And I said, "Why?"  He said, "Because it's against the law for anyone under 18 to work in a dangerous place."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I said, "Well if I have to go, James Householder, Johnny Miller and Bill Townes have to go.  James and Jim are 17 and Johnny Miller's 16."  He says, "I'll be back later."  So, he came back in two or three days.  He said, "They said it was more important for you to be working here than it was to follow the rules, so you all four stay."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: So we stayed.  But anyway, I was doing the clerk's job, you know, on shift work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: Vern Gritzer came to me one day and he said, "Have you seen this building they're building out there in the middle of the U?"  You know, the building was shaped like a “U”.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I said, "Yeah."  He said, "That's your office."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: I said, "What?"  He said, "The clerks are helping some, but not enough.  There's no coordination down here."  And he said, “You're going to work straight shifts, on straight days and you're going to keep things going."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: "And you're going to have to do everything that the supervisors don't have time to do."  And then there is another room for the supervisors to come in and work in if they find it's not satisfactory out there on their desk."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: I'll tell you -- I was 18 years old.  I ran into medical situations that were embarrassing to the bosses and I had to handle them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Yes.  Girls with social diseases.  They wanted blood tests.  The men were too embarrassed to call the doctors and talk to them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I had to do it.  I'm 18 years old and I've been in a girls' school.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].  That was quite an education, wasn't it?
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, I'll tell you and if they needed to get hold of somebody and couldn't find them, I had to go out and look for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: When the employees, or the new employees came in, I had to assign them to shifts.  And I'm not a typist.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: My mother was a typist.  She could type over 100 words a minute, but every now and then, I'd have to do a little bit -- I used the Biblical system, “seek and ye shall find”.  And so, I found I didn't have enough forms for them to fill out for us to have there in the office, so I typed up some real quick, carbon copy, you know, like five -- I guess about -- we could go, I think, four or five copies --
MR. MCDANIEL: Four or five copies, yeah.
MRS. KEMPER: -- yeah and just a half a sheet, you know, to get their basic information.  And one of the men came over -- I mean I had about 30 in there, so I'd already passed out a bunch of others and then I passed these out and one of the men came over and says, "What does that say there?"  I said, "Day transferred to shift organization."  He says, "You left an F out of shift."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: Well, I said, "I told you I couldn't type."  What happens later:  "You've got to type this letter.  The secretaries upstairs, you know, where the Wheels were, upstairs and the secretaries, they don't have time to do it."  So, I typed about three lines and I started out, "Union Carbide Nuclear Company."  Only if you reverse the N and the U, you have Union Carbide Unclear --
MR. MCDANIEL: Unclear [laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: -- well, of course I pulled it out and had to -- I hung it up on the wall and everybody just howled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They said, "Well that's right."
MR. MCDANIEL: Of course.
MRS. KEMPER: But I'll tell you, personnel problems -- I was everybody's mother.  If they needed tubing, I had to go chase it down.  I had to chase the people down they needed.  I had to run upstairs and get stuff there.  It was interesting.  It was very interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, they must've thought highly of you to give you that much responsibility.
MRS. KEMPER: They must have.  Now, all I could figure was that on the test at the end of the training over in Ford, Bacon and Davis, that -- I made a hundred on the test, and I remember everybody in there was 25 or older.  There were engineers, housewives and there was one young man in there, and we kind of took up with each other --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: -- because they, you know, turn their nose up at us, particularly one of the instructors.  "You've never seen numbers like that."  I said, "I've had trigonometry and I've had a touch of calculus and I'm familiar with those numbers you're writing up there."  "Oh, you dumb blonde, you don't know anything."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And anyway -- but I know they couldn't get the proper sized copper tubing one day, and I went and got what they had, but it just wouldn't work.  It was the wrong size.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: So they said, "Well, you know what we do when we can't find what we need?"  Part of the buildings that were being constructed had not been turned over to Carbide. So, you go out there at night and you swipe some stuff that's installed over there --
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?  Oh my goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: -- and bring it back in.  We'd have personnel problems and one day this man came in and the girl was one of the workers for him had filed a grievance against him and I said, "He's the nicest man in the organization, what's the matter with you?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And you know what I really think was she didn't know the guy was married and she was trying to make some time with him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh [laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: I think that's what was going on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Could have been.
MRS. KEMPER: But I had a man and a woman that came in and she said, "I'm still using my maiden name.  We just got married and I haven't changed it on Social Security."  Okay, three weeks later there's a telephone call -- we'll say this is Mr. A and Miss B.  This man calls up and says, "I'm looking for my wife, Miss B."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And I said, "What?"  "Well, my wife's working in this department."  And of course, you see obviously, what it was.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: She'd run --
MR. MCDANIEL: She'd run off.
MRS. KEMPER: And I said, "I don't know where you got the information, but this is a very confidential business here.  I'm not allowed to give out any information."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he said, "Well, Personnel told me to call you."  I said, "Maybe they can release it, but," I said, "I can't."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I said, "I'm sorry, I can't do a thing about it."  And these people - they'd get into arguments and then girlfriends and boyfriends, and I was everybody's mother and I never did figure out why they put me in that job at such a young age.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: But they --
MR. MCDANIEL: So how long did you do that?
MRS. KEMPER: Well, let's see, after D-Day Vacuum Testing was over. I was in there, let's see.  I went to work there in July of '44, and they must've had me into that not too long after that.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I guess after a few months and it was a very challenging job.  I also had to make sure they had the correct forms and if they didn't have them to get printing to do them and go out sometimes and check where they were having a problem on one of the cells trying to pump stuff down and go check and see what it was because that particular boss didn't have time to go do it.  He had to go do something else.  I'd go chase around, see what they were doing, and did they need more personnel, and it was a very challenging job.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure it was but I'm sure it was interesting.  It was probably more interesting than just sitting there doing the same thing over and over like a production job.
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, this is right and one time I walked into the cell floor and they'd been waiting for me all morning long.  Back during World War II, somebody made some spiders about this big with springs on the legs and that cell floor -- I believe it was 20 feet up to the ceiling --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: -- and of course the pipe galleries were up there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They waited all morning long to drop that thing down on me.
[Laughter]
MRS. KEMPER: And I never did know who did it.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I couldn't see who was up there doing it.  And Doctor, Doc, we called him, Armisted, was the head of Vaccuum Testing.  Somebody came out there one day and got me and said, "He's been here for three days now, trying to get that cell to pump down, and it won't pump."  And I says, "What do you want me to do?"  "He hadn't eaten a thing today.  Go find him some food."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And the canteen -- they drove a canteen truck in there for us to eat off of, and I knew he was out there, and I went running out there and he was getting ready to leave. "What have you got to eat?"  "All I've got's this big pie."  
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: I said, "Give it to me; I'll pay you tomorrow.  This is an emergency."  
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: I went in there and he always called me Miss J.  And I pulled it out, you know, and handed it to him and he took a bite, then he took another bite, and he says, "Miss J, I can't eat your pie."  Then he took another bite.  I gave him another piece.  He ate half that pie with me standing there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he? [laughs]
MRS. KEMPER: But anyway, it was interesting, and did you ever interview Dr. Flickinger?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, no ma'am.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, I guess he was gone.  He had two or three Ph.Ds. and one night or one day -- occasionally, they would check the buses when we went in for badges.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They didn't stop us -- okay.  They stopped a bus and Dr. Flickinger did not have his badge.  Now, he was a Wheel-Wheel, way up there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: But they hauled him off to the security area and said, "What's your name?"  Well, he was hair-lipped and the story goes he says, "Flickinger."  "What?"  "Flickinger."  "What's he say -- what are you saying?"  He says, "Flickinger and I wish the hell it was Smith."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: And another night, maybe that's when I was on the night shift, I don't know.  But anyway, for a short while, some people had to have two badges so when somebody forgot their badge, one of the guys with two badges would just loan them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And then everybody started drawing horns and beards on them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh.  
MRS. KEMPER: So one day, this girl had forgotten her badge, so one of the men, I remember who it was, he handed it to her and she put it on, and the guard walked around to check and people got to giggling, and he went back again and he looked at that badge on that girl that had horns and laughed.  They both got hauled off the bus.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet.  I bet they did.
MRS. KEMPER: But it was, I'll tell you, trying to find things, assign people, keep people happy, find the materials they needed, chase down the people and it was really interesting.  It really was.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'll bet, I'll bet.
MRS. KEMPER: And then after -- of course, then vacuum testing was, of course, done away with at the end of the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: So, I went to work for Ray Tressler and Don Seeds.  I don't know whether you recognize those names or not, but those were two of the engineers in the upstairs and we were handling the repairs and changes that needed to be done to the K-25 building.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And that was real nice, too, very nice and I remember -- of course this was after the war was over, but I quit there in March of '47 to go to the University of 
Tennessee.
***[Editor’s Note: A portion of this transcript was taken out at Mrs. Kemper’s request]***
MR. MCDANIEL: That's okay.  So you worked in that office until after the war. Where you were doing everything and then you moved upstairs with the engineering.
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: Because vacuum testing was no more.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: Would you like to hear a little tale about after that?
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, absolutely.
MRS. KEMPER: Do you recognize the name George Ten Eyke Shelton?
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-mm.
MRS. KEMPER: Well he was one of the supervisors of one of the areas of K-25 and his office was right there by ours and he came in one day and he says, "Hold out your hand," and I held my hand and went oops!  It was a piece of uranium.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: It was heavy.  He said it was solid uranium hexafluoride. And anyway, he had been to a meeting and he was kind of shaky and he said to Don and Jiggs and me, "Well, let me tell you what they've been talking about.  They have finally done the," -- what do you call it -- the counting of how much uranium went in at the lower end of the U, and how much had come out at 311 and either the accounting is very inaccurate or 311-1, 2, 3 are going to blow up at any minute.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And so he scared the hell out of us [laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: I'll bet he did.
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, he was scared.
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh.
MRS. KEMPER: But it didn't blow up, so --
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah [laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: Anyway.  But you know, working around -- I was interested in science and all, chemistry particularly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I hated all that stuff that I was going to have to take to get a degree in chemistry.  All this sociology and psychology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: I didn't want to do that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, right, of course.
MRS. KEMPER: So, I would fuss in Atlanta about why couldn't girls go to Georgia Tech.  "Oh no, girls don't do that."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: And I said, "Well why can't the women do this?"  And so I left on March -- whatever that day was in March -- went over to the University of Tennessee --
MR. MCDANIEL: In March of 1946?
MRS. KEMPER: '47.
MR. MCDANIEL: '47.  
MRS. KEMPER: I went over there and got in the line to register into engineering because the boys had encouraged me at K-25.  These engineers -- half of them were trained by Westinghouse and half by General Electric --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: -- and they feuded.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: They feuded all the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].  That's kind of like somebody being from UT and somebody being from Alabama.
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, just about.  Yeah.  I was over at my boyfriend's son’s– well, my husband died several years ago, and then I ran into a square-dancing friend -- he had lost his wife. And we didn't know it. So we were over at his son's house one day in Murfreesboro and there was a car sitting out there with an Alabama -- "Hooray for Alabama" tag, and I went and I says, "Who the blankety-blank does that belong to?"  He says -- one of his son's says, "I apologize."  No, it wasn't his son, it was his grandson.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: He says, "You want me to take it off?"  I said, "If you don't, I'm going to," [laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, how funny.
MRS. KEMPER: But we didn't but --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: -- but anyway.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you left in '47.  You left and you went to UT?
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh and got in the line to register in Engineering and the lady says to me, "You're a girl."  I said, "So?"  She said, "You have to have permission from the Dean."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: So, I went in to see the Dean.  "Hello?  What can I do for you?"  I said, "Well, the registrar out there said I had to get your permission to register in Engineering."  "Oh, the little blonde lady wants to be an engineer."  And I handed him my transcript from high school and he says, "Holy mackerel, where did you go to school?  You have better prerequisites than any boys' application that I have seen this year."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: He said, "You go out there and tell them you're better qualified than those boys in that line and to register you, and I don't mean maybe."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].  Well, good.
MRS. KEMPER: So, I got in.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you got into the Engineering school?
MRS. KEMPER: They ran a bus out here – well, there was a bus that went to Knoxville that left at 6:30, and they detoured it by UT because half the bus people were students going to UT.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: So, this guy had to wake me up to get off the bus.  Well, we showed up in the same class together.  Well, the second time I saw him, he asked me for a date.  And so the third time, he called and he said, "Mama said invite you over for dinner because my aunt is coming up from Atlanta and her name's Alice Janette” -- Bob’s father was head of the Concrete Plant at K-25.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: -- so she's bringing her family," so, we went over.  Very nice, had a nice time and they started passing around family pictures, as you will do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: "Here's little Bobby when he's two years old, one year old, little Bobby."  And then they handed me this picture and said, "And here's little Bobby's first grade class". I looked at it real quickly and handed it to his mother.  I said, "Turn it over.  It says "People Street School, Atlanta, Georgia, First Grade, Susie Hamilton, teacher."  Turn it back over and I'll show you where I'm standing next to Billy Smith on the second row.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Mm-hm.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].  Well my goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: And my maiden name was Jackson, of course.  That's what they called me out at K-25, was Jackson or Jacks, and anyway, we were just a little bit shocked by the whole thing, but I do remember -- I did not remember the names.  I was only in that school a half a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he was there for the first and fourth grade.  But we started dating and a girlfriend was up from Atlanta, and he got her a date and we started going through his wallet and here was a picture of this girl he had dated that lived two houses from my friend that was there -- Joanne Lemon.  I knew her real well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And it was just crazy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Huh.
MRS. KEMPER: So, anyway, eventually, everybody says, "Y'all are going to get married, aren't you?"  So, the deal was that I would quit and I went back to Carbide to work.  I worked in Reproduction, doing the forms and things like that and then he finished  and then I was going to go back and finish.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: He was in the Reserves.  He had been in World War II.  They called him back for Korea.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. KEMPER: And I got pregnant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh.
MRS. KEMPER: I was sick as a dog.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MRS. KEMPER: So, I took some night courses and stuff like that -- went back some, but I never did get my degree.  But I have worked in it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I went back to work – well, I had three children in two and a half years and let's see -- one rolled off the doctor's table when she was five days old.  One of them talked in sentences at 12 months and the third one sat alone at 2 weeks.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: So, they got here half grown.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] They were half grown.
MRS. KEMPER: They were half grown, boy, I mean, were they a handful.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: But anyway, I went back to work when the oldest one could drive because otherwise you're marooned in this town.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. KEMPER: Which is why I have two cars out there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: But I went back to work.  Now, I had had no discrimination in high school, of course.  No discrimination at K-25; none at all --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I went to UT and ran into it right away, and one day one of the boys -- some of the boys got the teacher in the back of the room and said, "What kind of a draftsman is she?"  He says, "Oh, she's an A student, but I don't give women A’s."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Okay, I went to work here in town for an engineering firm.  It's Adams, Crouch and something now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, it was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Adams, Craft, yeah.
MRS. KEMPER: -- Craft.  Yeah, well, it was Crouch and Adams at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, you've seen the survey crews out working.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And you know, there's a guy holding the rod?
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: They were paying him twice as much as I was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And here, I was the fastest draftsman they had.  I could do stuff the rest of them couldn't, and if I didn't know how to do it, I'd ask Bob.  If he didn't know how, he had the whole engineering plant to ask.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly.
MRS. KEMPER: And they'd get mad when I knew something they didn't know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when did you go to work for them?
MRS. KEMPER: It's when Kathy was 16.  Let's see, she was born in '51.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, '67.
MRS. KEMPER: So, that'd be '67.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you stayed at home until the kids were, you know, older?
MRS. KEMPER: I supposedly stayed at home.  I was up to my neck with church work and school work and --
MR. MCDANIEL: I know what you mean.
MRS. KEMPER: -- but I didn't get paid for it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah [laughs] exactly.
MRS. KEMPER: And --
MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you live?
MRS. KEMPER: We lived first in -- when we first got married, we got an apartment over on Hunter Circle, and then --
MR. MCDANIEL: The last four interviews I've done, the people got an apartment at Hunter Circle.  The first place they lived.
MRS. KEMPER: Is that right?  No fooling?
MR. MCDANIEL: The last four interviews that I've done, including yours.
MRS. KEMPER: Well now, we were in Knoxville for six months, until we got on -- we were on the list.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: You know that routine.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MRS. KEMPER: And anyway, from there, let's see, is that when he got called back in the Army and we had to leave and I had to go to Atlanta.  I was pregnant and I was sick through all my pregnancies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I found out later I was allergic to progesterone and there's not anything you can do about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And I went to Atlanta and then he finally got placed.  They were holding him -- they told him he was going to the front lines, but he didn't.  They were holding him to be an engineering instructor at Fort Belvoir, Virginia.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.  Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And that's where our oldest daughter was born.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. KEMPER: And then he worked in Tullahoma a little while until he could get back on here.  And then we lived out on Aspen Lane, in one of those houses, and I remember at the PTA meeting, the -- oh, what was his name, Superintendent of Schools, they were having to move some of us from Glenwood to Elm Grove because Glenwood ran over, and somebody popped up and said to the superintendent, "Did you think that grandparents were going to rent those 500 3-bedroom houses?"  And anyway, from there, they sold the house and we were in an E1 and E2 together for a few months.  We'd bought a lot and we had three contractors fall down on us because when they first started building here, things weren't right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And then this house came up for sale and we bought this in '64, I believe it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. KEMPER: And we have a two-story house because two of my three daughters made the biggest messes in the world and it was so nice to have it upstairs 
[Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: Have it upstairs -- there you go.  So, but you went back to work in the engineering firm?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, I went back and worked in engineering -- worked there until they had a layoff and one of the guys who was laid off called me -- he had his degree by then -- he called me from a place in Knoxville.  He'd gone to work there and they needed another draftsman.  Well did you ever see these old adding machines where there were rows and rows of numbers?
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.
MRS. KEMPER: That's what they were doing over there.  They were using those.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: And they weren't giving the right answers, so about that time, I remember Bob bought me one for $100.00 or so. The little ones were coming out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And I worked there a while and, you know, a funny thing happened.  The keys to my car disappeared.  I laid them on the desk because I was getting ready to go, and somebody asked me something.  I had on my desk, my purse and my keys.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Keys disappeared.  Bob had to drive from out here to bring me a set of keys to get my car home.  Those boys picked on me.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: And that boss over there, he was trying to show me how to do stuff, and he was doing it wrong. He'd paid somebody to do a whole bunch of stuff and I had used the program here at Crouch and Adams, and I looked at it and I said, "They haven't done it right."  I mean, all the printing was down there as to what they'd ordered, and I said, "You paid all this money to," "Well I'm too embarrassed to do anything."  So, I had to do it all by hand because they didn't have that connection over there -- didn't have that program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And so anyway, I worked a couple of other places.  That one was going down and it went out of business.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And then I went over and somebody called me and said they were having -- doing the reappraisal on Blount County and they needed somebody to do the maps.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: Update on the maps, so that was another experience.  The boss had an eighth grade education and knew nothing about surveying.  And so --
MR. MCDANIEL: But you did this and you were -- so that was your work career, there and you did that?  When did you finally retire from that kind of work?
MRS. KEMPER: Ah --
MR. MCDANIEL: Or have you [laughs]?
MRS. KEMPER: How can I say this nicely?
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: I had trouble with the men not behaving.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And I'd have to take Bob to work on Saturday, the last place I worked because that man had gotten under- he --
MR. MCDANIEL: Gotten out of control, huh?
MRS. KEMPER: Well, it was pretty bad, what he did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And I went and told the junior boss and he told the senior boss and then the senior -- oh, but anyway, I had to go in and work on Saturday.  It was important and they were in a hurry, and so Bob says, "I'm going with you and take my crossword puzzles and books and stuff,"
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And so this guy comes in that had been very much out of hand -- in fact, I kicked him and hurt my leg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he comes bouncing in.  He wasn't supposed to be there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And so he goes in, he comes in, okay?  He comes to the door here.  Bob's sitting, the door opens and Bob's behind it.  He didn't see and he walks on over here, goes to his desk, mine's here, he goes there and he looks up and he saw Bob, and I said, "You remember Bob, don't you?"  And he left.  And so -- but I had told the junior boss that that man had gotten out of hand --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: -- so the senior boss, he kept me late on day, and I was making motions to this young man who was a student.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he had come in there that he was smarter than anybody and he said, boss said, "Give him some work."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: "Some math -- see how his math is."  And I did and he did a good job, very good job on it, and I says, "Boy, you're pretty good in math."  He was just above all of us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he says, "I'll have you know I won -- I came in second for the math cup," you know that they give in the State of Tennessee and I says, "Really?  That's the year my cousin won."  
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].  How funny.
MRS. KEMPER: He didn't speak to me for the rest of the day and the next day, I took the graduation program in.  My cousin lived in Georgia, but they had sent him to a school in Chattanooga.
MR. MCDANIEL: Chattanooga?  Uh-huh.
MRS. KEMPER: And we went -- what is the name of that school down there, a private school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it Baylor?
MRS. KEMPER: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: No.
MRS. KEMPER: It was a high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.  There was a private school, high school Baylor, but I don't remember.
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, it was high school.  It's just not there at the moment.
MR. MCDANIEL: I remember -- I know which one you're talking about.
MRS. KEMPER: But anyway, I had the program to show that he had gotten it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you [laughs]?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah.  So, after that, we were the best of friends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: We really were.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, good.
MRS. KEMPER: And he tried- but anyway, that old man, though, as I said, I told the younger boss --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: -- and he gave the guy, you know, behave himself.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And so then, that guy told me that we weren't supposed to be in drafting.  We were supposed to take care of the children, and take care of those men.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: And you women shouldn't be out working.  And anyway, finally, the old boss kept me one afternoon and this young man and I -- as I said, we were friends -- and I kept looking at him and he was getting the message.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And he wouldn't leave and the boss said, "Well, you're off the clock. I'm not paying you."  He said, "Well, I'm just cleaning up my desk and some stuff here I need to do.  I'm off the clock."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And he said, "I told you to get outta here."  So he left, shook his head and left, and then the guy started getting -- the boss started getting smart and he was an old man.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Smoking an old nasty cigar and I looked at him and I said, "I have a headache," and I walked out.  And the next day he fired me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And then he wasn't going to let me -- they were getting ready to go out of business, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: They were going downhill.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Engineering was pretty bad at that time, and so anyway, he -- they weren't going to let me have unemployment compensation and so I called the lawyer and gave them a message and I got my unemployment compensation and Bob says, "We've got the girls through college," he says, "Why don't you just stay home?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. But y'all were living in Oak Ridge and was Bob still working out at K-25?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: He retired in '88.
MR. MCDANIEL: But you spent a lot of years, you know, raising the kids and being active in the community?
MRS. KEMPER: Yes, active.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, before you went back to work.  Tell me a little bit about some of those activities.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, back in 1943, in the 11th grade, this teacher says, "I'm going to give you all an assignment for two weeks, and I want in by the end of two weeks and that is your genealogy."  And I'm afraid I got the bug.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: At one time, I had done the papers for at least half the people in the local Daughters of the American Revolution.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. KEMPER: I was registrar for the -- oh, now that's after the kids were gone, no it started while they were home, but I've done an awful lot of it and then I did an awful lot of church work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: For First Presbyterian, and if you lived here in town, you may know that it split a number of years ago, and I was president of the women's association.  They tried to make me president of the PTA and I says, "No way, Jose."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: And let's see, what else did I get into?  We were in the Jaycees and the Jaycettes and into square dancing and we taught the round dancing.  We started that while the kids were at home.  In fact, one of our girls, she had a boyfriend in Knoxville, one in Oak Ridge, and one in Rockwood.  And they all three showed up at the same dance one night.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's not good.
MRS. KEMPER: And let's see.  Then let's see, I was at one time State Registrar for the Daughters of the Confederacy.  They were going to put me up to Registrar General, but I had not been a state officer the second time, so they put me in as a state officer for the second time, and with the idea of putting me in as Registrar General, and so I was about halfway through the state registrar's job and Bob died.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh.
MRS. KEMPER: And I said, "No way, Jose."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: "No, I will not do it."  But, I had been registrar before, as I said, the Daughters of the Confederacy and the DAR, the Colonial Dames of the 17th Century, and the Daughters of 1812.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And they were after me to get in some others, also having been registrar, but there's something for Indians -- either your relative was an Indian or your relative fought the Indians in a war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, my relative fought [laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, there you go.
MRS. KEMPER: So --
MR. MCDANIEL: But you were -- so you were active in the community while the kids were growing up and here in Oak Ridge --
MRS. KEMPER: Oh yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like for you -- I guess you grew accustomed to Oak Ridge.  It was different than Atlanta, I mean --
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, to come in here and have no friends and people that didn't know what -- well, my sister was out playing with a girl and so they both said they were thirsty and they went in the girl's house and they had the old oaken bucket sitting there with a diipper and so this girl dipped some water out and drank it and handed my sister the dipper.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And my sister was a germ freak.
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: And she got sick.  She said she just didn't even see in it.  She came home.  No, the worst thing was, you know, the grocery stores weren't that good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And Mama and the lady up the street, Mrs. Elliot found a place in Harriman, where the man had his own cattle and butchered and they would ride the bus down there to get the food.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, we'd have meat when other people didn't, but as I said, she lived couple houses up the street.  They were real good friends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: But the boardwalks, trying to walk on those in high heels and all that mud, and I know I ruined my new shoes with the mud.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And those buses -- those that took you out to K-25 were those old cattle cart that the Army used and my back's always been sore.  I was born with a sore back and that didn't help the situation.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure.
MRS. KEMPER: But the – somebody would come into something new.  "Oh, you've got something new.  You didn't get it in Oak Ridge, did you?"
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs].
MRS. KEMPER: One day, Jack Townsend, the red-headed guy, and another guy -- we were on -- oh, when we first went to work out there, it was Kellex, not Carbide.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And 12-hour days --
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: -- 12 hours, 7 days a week.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. KEMPER: And so one day these two boys called in sick.  The next day they came in, they both had on new clothes and had a haircut.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right [laughs]?
MRS. KEMPER: And of course [laughs] it was so obvious.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And --
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, let me ask you a question.  There was a couple of ladies that I talked to about young ladies that went to work there.  They had kind of an orientation.
MRS. KEMPER: Had kind of what?
MR. MCDANIEL: An orientation for the young ladies that went to work there.  Did you have any of that?
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-uh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: No, I got slapped right into there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh.
MRS. KEMPER: And I had been to a girls' school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I had to be a little accustomed to working around that many men, but those engineers -- I think I told you, they were two groups, GE and Westinghouse, but they were nice people and there were well -- these men were hand-picked.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And they were -- oh, I think there was one or two that they goofed on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: But they were brilliant people, but the funniest thing -- there were two acknowledged geniuses in the group.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: And my daughter, middle daughter, the day she came home from kindergarten she said, "I've met the sweetest little girl.  She's got the funniest name."  And I said, "Ask her if it's De La Garza."  And have you heard of Andy De La Garza?  Well, he was one of the two geniuses and that red-headed guy was the other one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And Barbara and Martha became friends in kindergarten.  They both went on to be Spanish teachers and they are still the best of friends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And in fact, when we had a birthday party for my middle one, Barbara, last May, Martha was there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh.
MRS. KEMPER: And she's just a delightful thing.  She's a brilliant girl and then I guess that's about -- let's see, I remember when Andy died, Andy and Jean, they were such a nice couple. But most of the engineers are gone of that group.  And of course, I worked with them telling me what to do with the rest of the people.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. KEMPER: And I looked through the phone book the other day and I found Mike London in there.  But he has moved.  I don't know whether he's still alive or not.  I remember when Naomi died, and I saw Joe Sawicki's name in there.  I was never particularly friends with him, but knew him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: But his name's still in there, but I don't see any other names.  Now, I saw Nelson Van Wies in the Knoxville phone book a couple of years ago, looking for something.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And ran in the V’s for some reason and his name was in there, but it's gone now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you said you just -- today, you went to the 43 Club luncheon.
MRS. KEMPER: Uh-huh.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me about the 43 Club.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, I don't know exactly when it started, but it was people that had been here in '43 or whose family had been here in '43.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And the main thing was just to meet together and have nice programs and get to talk to each other.  And there used to be a big gang there.  The way I found out about it -- do you know who Ed Wilcox is?  The photographer?
MR. MCDANIEL: Ed Westcott?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ed Westcott, yes.
MRS. KEMPER: Okay, he's dating my old time buddy from square dancing and he didn't get there yesterday.  Lil was there, but he wasn't there.  Lil's still prissin' around like a kid and she just had her 90th birthday.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who is it?
MRS. KEMPER: Lil Kite.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, all right.
MRS. KEMPER: And her husband, her late husband, was Floyd Kite.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh.
MRS. KEMPER: And we used to square dance with them.  And he -- but anyway, Lil -- she doesn't look 90.  Her kids kicked off a 90th birthday party a few weeks ago down at the, oh, at the old Wildcat Den.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah.  Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And there were over 100 people there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MRS. KEMPER: They had some belly dancers there and they got Lil out and tried to make her a belly dancer [laughs].
MR. MCDANIEL: But Ed Westcott, he was the one -- that's how you got to the 43 Club?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, somewhere -- I was waiting for something and so was he, and we were the only two waiting and we got to chatting and he asked, "How long have you been here," and I told him and he said, "Well you oughta," -- my dad came in '43 and we came up in '44 when -- and he said, "Well you oughta come to the 43 Club," so that's what started it.  And Bob and I started going and meeting people, you know, that we've known in the past, and they've all died off.  It's just getting smaller and smaller and I used to know everybody there, and now it's just hardly anything at all.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. KEMPER: And they were talking about its just gone down so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They don't know how -- but they keep saying that anybody that's interested can come and if you've been here 43 years or your parents have been here or anybody.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MRS. KEMPER: But this -- after Bob died, I mentioned that I ran into Bill up at the state square dance convention and I didn't know Lillian had died and he didn't know Bob had died and so I took him to the 43 Club and the talk was about the things that were going to be done at Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And so then we were over at his daughter's house in Knoxville, and we started talking about it.  Well his son-in-law is quit a wheel in engineering at Y-12.  He said, "Where'd you find out all this stuff?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: And I says, "Well, you just don't get around like I do."  But he was quite surprised at what he found out about it.  You know, what they had told us about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. KEMPER: They usually have very interesting programs.  Now this time, they had a string quartet there, and there was no formal program, but oh, they just played beautiful Christmas music.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, good.
MRS. KEMPER: But the programs are always nice, but gradually, I've watched the people die off.
MR. MCDANIEL: And your husband died several years ago, you said?
MRS. KEMPER: About nine and a half years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Nine and a half years ago.
MRS. KEMPER: In April.  Let's see.  My husband -- Bob died in April of 2002.  My mother died in April of '76.  My dear, dear cousin in Florida -- I don't mean in Florida, in Chattanooga, she died in April, April before last, and Bill died in April, three years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MRS. KEMPER: And I don't like April.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, I imagine you're waiting for May every time it comes around, aren't you?
MRS. KEMPER: Yeah, I'm telling.  And all these people were born in March.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh.
MRS. KEMPER: Except cousin Leona.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: She was born in May.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Her mother and her grandmother.  Now, her grandmother lived in Atlanta and, of course, her kids lived with her, three of them did and never left home, but they were mama's first cousins.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: But anyway --
MR. MCDANIEL: You -- so now, you look like you get out and about and you're pretty vibrant, so what do you do now?
MRS. KEMPER: Well, we had a bad summer.  It was too hot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: I cut the grass.  I cut down the trees.  Then jammed that mower down there, was -- I thought I missed that little stump that was in there and I didn't and it jammed.  I had to get my grandson over here to come get it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, my goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: My youngest -- my girls, as I said, are -- well Linda will be 58 on New Year's Eve.  Barbara's 59 and Kathy's 60 and Linda's got MS.  She's in a wheelchair.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MRS. KEMPER: And --
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where do they live?
MRS. KEMPER: In Oliver Springs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. KEMPER: And then Kathy's in North Carolina, Wake Forest, and Barbara's in Knoxville.  She teaches in Maynardville.  She's an art and Spanish teacher.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: And Linda's the one that has the MS, she's an acupuncture doctor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. KEMPER: Kathy's got her master's in Computer Science.
 MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: Barbara's five-ten, Kathy's five-eight, and Linda's five-six.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Barbara's five-ten.  She has a daughter five-six.  Kathy's five-eight, she has a daughter five-six.  Linda, who is five-six, has a son that's six-four and he's got a baby.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: Oh, he is adorable.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, let's wrap this up.  Anything else you want to talk about, your life in Oak Ridge or your work?
MRS. KEMPER: No.  I just know that when they started hiring the engineers -- the women, out at the plants, that I would meet them and they'd say, "Oh, Mr. Kemper's so nice to us.  The other engineers, if we ask them something, they kind of put us down and make fun of us, but he's always so nice."  
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: I said, "He has seen the other side of the fence and knows what I went through --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER:  -- not only with the men bothering me."  Nothing personal, just any woman, just woman, isn't that what you're supposed to do is pick on the women?  Go make passes at them.  But Bob was awfully smart, and he was very good about helping the girls.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: And I had a friend that had had no formal engineering training, but she had had some training at, oh, I don't know what it was, the Navy or the Army, some Army base or something and she ran into the same problems that I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. KEMPER: And she said there were 12 technicians in 12 cubicles -- she worked at TVA. They would walk by -- the boss would walk by the 11 other cubicles and tell her to go get the coffee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. KEMPER: So, this one engineer, he didn't like her and he'd bring everybody flowers, but her.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. KEMPER: And so the boss fussed at him, so then he brought her dead flowers.  Well, she had work every other Saturday, and she was the only one there and he had, always, you know, the beautiful flowers and he brought them to work, and he had a jade plant that was going up to the ceiling.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MRS. KEMPER: She poured a weed killer on it.  [Laughter]
MR. MCDANIEL: My goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: And he fertilized it and called the florist and everybody knew it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, let's go ahead and wrap things up.  I thank you for taking time to talk to me.
MRS. KEMPER: Well --
MR. MCDANIEL: And talking about your life and your work and your family.
MRS. KEMPER: Well, I didn't know exactly what to say --
MR. MCDANIEL: That's okay.
MRS. KEMPER: -- and that sort of thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's all right.  That's all right.  We just had a conversation.
MRS. KEMPER: But it's been a very interesting life.  In 2002, no 2000, January 2000, this is when I finally got my husband to the doctor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: He wouldn't go.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. KEMPER: And I was threatening to drag him there and get some people to help me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. KEMPER: The doctor found lung cancer, colon cancer and an aneurysm on his aorta.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, my goodness.
MRS. KEMPER: He went through all that plus chemo and radiation plus a temporary colostomy in six months.  Three more months, he was out square dancing again and, the doctor, Dr. Bell, the head of the Cancer Center at UT, he says, "We've never seen anybody pull through anything like that and we can't figure it out," and one time, the lung doctor said the same thing and the lung doctor laughed at me.  Dr. Bell didn't -- I said, "You know, 2 stints in the Army and 40 years of square dancing keep you in pretty good shape."
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] That's --
MRS. KEMPER: And the lung doctor, he started laughing.  I said, "I'll give you some information.  I've got it at home.  I'll send it to you."  He changed the subject.  He looked at my granddaughter and says, "Where do you go to school?"
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right [laughs]?
MRS. KEMPER: And she says, "Webb."  He says, "My daughter goes over there, do you know her?"  Yeah, they were good friends.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my.
MRS. KEMPER: Changed the subject completely.
MR. MCDANIEL: Of course.  Well thank you for taking time to talk with us.  We appreciate it.
MRS. KEMPER: Well thank you for putting up with me because I talk an awful lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's all right.  Well thank you.

[End of Interview]