Irwin, David

              
ORAL HISTORY OF DAVID IRWIN
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
April 20, 2012
 
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is April 20, 2012, and I am at the home of Mr. David Irwin in -- I guess officially we're in Clinton, aren't we?
MR. IRWIN: Well, the community is known as Glen Alpine community, because that's where the school used to be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, we're on Mountain Road, on the other side of 75 [Note: I-75], that's what I can say.
MR. IRWIN: Right.  Right.  Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, Mr. Irwin, I appreciate it, appreciate you taking time to talk with us and share your story.
MR. IRWIN: Well, I'll try.
MR. MCDANIEL: Why don't we start at the very beginning?  Tell me where you were born, something about your family, and we'll just kind of go from there.
MR. IRWIN: All right.  Well, I was born in Union County.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year was that?
MR. IRWIN: That was 1932, January the 3rd.  And lived there until Norris Dam was built.  And because we were within the basin, we had to move.  Forced to move, and from there our family moved to what is now Oak Ridge, in the Robertsville community.  And at that -- we moved there on January 2, 1935.  I remember because it was the day before my birthday.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: I was three years old the next day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. IRWIN: And I don't remember a great lot about moving, except I do remember we got started to have supper, and we didn't have any tableware out.  So I remember going to the front porch with them and going through boxes and finding our tableware to eat supper.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So that's one thing I remember about our moving.  We lived in --
MR. MCDANIEL: Now where in the Robertsville community was your family's place?
MR. IRWIN: It was -- the farm was at the, I'd say the east end of Gamble Valley, at the very beginning of the road to Gamble Valley.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And they had close, not quite, but close to 300 acres on the farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now do you remember when you had to move from Norris -- I mean from Union County for the Norris Lake, and they just -- the government bought your family's property, right?
MR. IRWIN: They did.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then you, your father, he went there and bought more property, bought those 300 acres?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  Yeah, there was -- they had agreed to take care of my granddaddy and grandmother, so they moved in the original farm homestead, and we lived there for a year in it, until Dad built a bungalow, small bungalow very hurriedly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: Then they came in the fall of '32 -- or '35.
MR. MCDANIEL: '35, okay.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  It was known as the Jim McCamy farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  And he was old and a widower, and he wanted to live there.  Well, and asked if he could -- if they could, to keep him for a while there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: They did for maybe, I'm not sure, two or three years with my grandmother.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Took care of, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. IRWIN: And she wasn't -- she was getting a little aged, but it wasn't what -- she wasn't quite able to remain, to continue to keep taking care of him, so he moved to a home on Highway 61, about a half-mile away, to, I think it was the Miller family, and I don't know, I think his name was Bill Miller.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now he wanted to stay there until he died, didn't he?  Was that -- that was his intention?
MR. IRWIN: He did, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: He knew he wasn't going to live too much longer and he wanted -- now did he live in the house with you all?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  It was an eight-room house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?  Okay.  
MR. IRWIN: And he had a room of his own.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  It had a bed in it.  It was normally the living room, but they had a bed there.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess, you know, that's the way you people used to be, wasn't it?  They were -- they helped people out.
MR. IRWIN: Oh yeah.  Oh yeah.  So after, let's see, I remember some of the construction on their house was adjacent a couple hundred yards from the old homestead.  So we moved in it in I guess the fall of '35.  And then my grandmother -- they didn't have to leave until -- well, they started cutting the -- backing the water up in '36.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  Yeah.
MR. IRWIN: And so they didn't have to leave until fall.  My uncle stayed and grew a crop.
MR. MCDANIEL: So they had a little bit of time, didn't they?
MR. IRWIN: Had a little bit of time, yes. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Now this was in the middle of the Depression.
MR. IRWIN: Well, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, I mean, you know, what was that like?  Was your dad a farmer?  Is that what he did?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  Yeah, he was a farmer.  And I don't remember any hardship they complained about finances, but I'm sure there was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  Exactly.
MR. IRWIN: I know my dad --
MR. MCDANIEL: Most people were poor already, so the Depression didn't affect them too much.
MR. IRWIN: Just like everybody, I've read the different writers, and everybody was poor, but they didn't realize they were because they was all in the same shape.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Exactly.  Exactly.
MR. IRWIN: So they were fairly good livers.  And I know one thing during the Depression era, they had trouble -- well, their main thing was to accumulate enough to pay their property taxes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: That was one of the -- yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  That's kind of the same issue people have today, isn't it?
MR. IRWIN: It is.  It is.  And they were able to do it, of course.  And my dad said he got through, he made a good bit by raising pigs, hogs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: In that era everybody who was rural, or maybe even urban, had hogs, they killed hogs.  And so custom of every -- all over the country, I think in rural areas, to kill hogs in the fall.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So when they killed hogs they'd want to buy some back to replace them for the next year.  So he had some sows and he said he did pretty good selling those.  And he grew a crop of sorghum and made molasses, and of course at that time most of the people in the city had come --
MR. MCDANIEL: Excuse me just a minute.  
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: I hear a little water running or crinkling or something, and I was thinking it might be the microphone, but it -- that's all right.  That's okay.
MR. IRWIN: I think my ears are ringing.
MR. MCDANIEL: I took my headphones off and I still heard it, so we're in good shape then.
MR. IRWIN: You may -- I don't know, Caroline, is that --
MR. MCDANIEL: That's okay, though.
CAROLINE: The refrigerator is running.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.  That's what it was.  That's fine.
MR. IRWIN: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right, so anyway, I interrupted you; didn't mean to.  But you were talking about the hogs.
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: They'd get hogs to replace, or sows.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  Yeah.  Dad happened to be in -- have enough, some sows, and so all those neighbors in the area needed a pig, two or three pigs, so he was able to sell them.  I don't know what he got for them or anything like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: But then he grew the sorghum, a good-sized plot, I think, and he, as I said, most of the people in Knoxville had ties with rural areas, so he took his molasses and sold them on -- peddled them out on the streets in Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. IRWIN: And of course they always had some cows and he milked and sold butter, and they had corn, corn, extra corn and things.  That was in Union County.  And then --
MR. MCDANIEL: Hold on just a second.
MR. IRWIN: Okay.  Maybe you're hearing my ears ring.
MR. MCDANIEL: No, I think it's kind of a crackle.  It stopped.  We'll just move on until I hear it again.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So he sold his molasses on the street.
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  Yeah.  And he drove a car.  He bought a new '28 Chevrolet and --
MR. MCDANIEL: You just keep talking.
MR. IRWIN: Okay.  And mother drove the streets and he walked to the houses.  Is that it?
MR. MCDANIEL: That -- it's your candy.  It's your candy that you're -- you're crinkling -- it sounded like cellophane.  But see, you're just holding that, and boy, I tell you, that microphone is so sensitive it just picks it right up.
MR. IRWIN: Well, it's so close.
MR. MCDANIEL: No, it's good.  You just --
MR. IRWIN: So close here.
MR. MCDANIEL: No, I know.  It's right there, so you can just pick up your candy and eat it, but don't crinkle it anymore.
MR. IRWIN: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: If you need it.
MR. IRWIN: I don't really. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.  That's why that was just curious to me as to what it was.
MR. IRWIN: Been all the way through?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, no, just the last little bit.  But that's fine.  That's no problem.
MR. IRWIN: Okay.  Okay.  
MR. MCDANIEL: That's no problem.  Okay, so we were talking about -- all right, where were we?
MR. IRWIN: Well, we moved out of Union County.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Well we did that a long time ago.  But we were talking about he sold his molasses.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were living -- so we've got you on the farm there in Robertsville.
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  
MR. MCDANIEL: How many brothers and sisters did you have?
MR. IRWIN: I have one brother.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, one brother?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that is? 
MR. IRWIN: John Rice.
MR. MCDANIEL: John Rice Irwin.
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.  Now was he older than you?
MR. IRWIN: He's a year and three weeks older than me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  Okay.  And so y'all were just young little pups running around that farm, weren't you?
MR. IRWIN: Oh yes. 
MR. MCDANIEL: What was -- tell me while you were there, we'll get to you moving later, but while you were there what was life like?  What did you do?
MR. IRWIN: Well, we had, as I said, the 300 acres, and the adjoining farm had something like 400 acres, so we were pretty much isolated from neighbors.  We had one neighbor close, but they were old.  So we had all those acres to roam and go over.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: And my grandfather would occasionally take us out and we would roam the fields and the woodland.  I can go -- if things were the same way when we left as they were when we were there, rather, I could take you to different spots of interest that was interesting to me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, I can remember them very clearly.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure you had creeks and --
MR. IRWIN: We had a branch that had minnows in it, which we probably shouldn't have, I'm sure, but we would seine -- make us a seine out of a burlap bag and seine minnows.
MR. MCDANIEL: Seine minnows.
MR. IRWIN: And sometimes we'd put them down and stomp on them and hear them pop.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, that's what little kids do.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  And we had a little swimming hole.  It was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. IRWIN: Learned to swim.  It was probably three feet deep, maybe.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: At our age it was --
MR. MCDANIEL: It was big, wasn't it?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, big, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now was that in the branch?
MR. IRWIN: It was in a branch that our branch ran into that was real close to the farm or property line.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So we had that outside activities.  The only time we played in the house was when it was raining or too cold.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Now you all were too young; you hadn't started school yet, I guess.
MR. IRWIN: No.  No.  
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was just you two, and you were too far away from anybody else, so I guess you and your brother got kind of close.
MR. IRWIN: Well, yeah.  Of course we were always together.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Of course.  Of course.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were there.  And when did you start the school?
MR. IRWIN: Well, at first year I was -- they started me early.  I was five and wouldn't be six until January, and brother John Rice was -- hadn't been as healthy they thought as he -- he had some health problems, so they kept him back, and we started at the same time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.  
MR. IRWIN: And the first year was at Robertsville, because Scarboro School had burned down and it was being rebuilt.  So our second year we went to Scarboro.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. IRWIN: Which is still there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Now how far were those schools from you?  And did you have to walk or did they run a bus?
MR. IRWIN: We had a bus.  The first -- our first grade there was a neighbor that lived down half-a-mile or two-quarters of a mile, and he drove a car.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Picked us up in a car and took us to --
MR. MCDANIEL: To school?  
MR. IRWIN: -- to school.  But then we had a bus, and we had to ride -- well, it was I don't know how many miles over to Scarboro from Gamble Valley, but it was some mileage.  But in the afternoons if we rode the bus home, which we did unless it was raining, we'd have to go across to Highway 61, come up to Elza Gate, and go back down to Wheat, and come back and cross the mountain over into Gamble Valley.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh my goodness.
MR. IRWIN: Go down that valley and come back home.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was a long trip.
MR. IRWIN: It was a long trip.  I don't know, maybe three hour, maybe --
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MR. IRWIN: But in order to shorten that time we would get off and walk from the road, I can't think, it's where all the restaurants is that's before you get to K-Mart coming from Scarboro; we'd get off there and walk home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right.  Right.  Tulsa or Vanderbilt or one of those right in there.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  I'm not sure.  I'm not --
MR. MCDANIEL: But that area right there, near Illinois.
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  I'm not close to remember exactly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: But here we would all come and be there a long time before --
MR. MCDANIEL: Before the bus got there.
MR. IRWIN: -- before the bus got there.  And it would give us time to do our chores.  We always had eggs to gather, that was our job, and get in the firewood for the -- and coal.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: And do other --
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have milk cows?  Did you have any dairy cows?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have to milk?
MR. IRWIN: No, not at that age.  Dad had kept about five or six shares of cows, and when it was fresh then he'd grow the calf into veal-size, and he'd sell the veals and then he'd milk the -- we had to help, he had a separator, and we'd have to crank the separator.  And the cream, he would sell the cream and use the other -- use the milk then to feed hogs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. IRWIN: So we had to -- and we learned to wash the separator and put it back together.  Then Dad had a little cart, he built a two-wheel cart and we was big enough to pull it to the barn, which was about 100 yards away, to feed that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So that was part of our chores.
MR. MCDANIEL: So it came along in, I guess, about 1942, you all were, I guess you were ten or so, weren't you?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: About ten.
MR. IRWIN: I was ten.
MR. MCDANIEL: And the government came calling again, didn't they?
MR. IRWIN: They sure did.  And without much fanfare or notice -- we didn't know -- I know we started school in it's probably September, and being seeing people out surveying, but no one knew what they were going to do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So in January the 6th of '43, we were out of there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. IRWIN:  And there was lots of anxiety and wondering and trying to relocate, and they had crops to finish.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did -- when did -- do you know when your dad was notified?  Was it around Thanksgiving or so?
MR. IRWIN: No, no, it was later than that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?
MR. IRWIN: They just knew it was going to -- I knew -- I don't know whether there was an official notice; I don't remember.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: But I do remember they hadn't offered very much for the properties.  And I remember going to a meeting at Robertsville School when John Jennings was representative, U.S. Representative, and came, and they were trying to find a way that they could pay them a reasonable price.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Nothing ever came of that, did it?
MR. IRWIN: No, it didn't.  
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess your dad, I mean, you know, understandably, you'd had to move from Union County, you know, just six years earlier, or seven years earlier.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, eight.
MR. MCDANIEL: Eight years earlier.  You come down here, you build a new house, you build up your farm, you know, you rebuild your life basically, and then it happens again.  
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: How can anybody not be mad or cynical or upset over something like that?
MR. IRWIN: Upset.  I don't remember their being mad about it.  Boy, then the anxiety of trying to take -- put it all together and find a place to move to, because he wanted to stay in farming; it was all he knew and all he wanted to know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Right.
MR. IRWIN: Which had been in the past a good living.
MR. MCDANIEL: A good living, sure.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  So I do remember, and I don't have it on hand, but Mother, a letter I found, we found, that she had written to her mother, and saying, "We don't know what we're going to do.  Glenn's out looking for a place to move, and we don't know how much money they're going to give us, so we don't know what kind of a place to try to buy."  But she said, "He's gone now to look at a place above Clinton, and it will be next to Uncle Pearce and Aunt Anne."  And that was her father's sister and husband. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: "And we'll be closer to your house," which is in Knox County, on East Knox County off Hill Road.  So those were the only comforting things that she had to say.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure. 
MR. IRWIN: So they didn't know, and they did buy this -- this is the place that he bought.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  Where we are right now?
MR. IRWIN: Yes, where we are now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.  How many acres was it at the time?
MR. IRWIN: It was 118 acres here when he bought this place.  And ever since then I've added some properties to it, because I farmed all my life.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. IRWIN: Dairy.  Dairy and tobacco farmer.  So we kept -- we built a herd up until prices and health weren't too good, so we sold our dairy cows.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  So you moved here to this place.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And did you -- was there a house here or did you have to build something?
MR. IRWIN: The house they moved into was a pretty I'd say rustic.  It was a weather-boarded house, but it had never been painted.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. IRWIN: And it was sealed with tongue-and-groove.  But there's places at the right time you can see the sun shining through the cracks.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: It was very -- and of course we didn't -- eight bedrooms at that time.  They had a fireplace and then they got a coal stove, and that helped.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.  But still cold in the winter, though.
MR. IRWIN: It was still cold.  I know one night, I don't know, it was down zero maybe, or --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And we had so much cover over us we couldn't turn over.  But we stayed warm.  I mean we made it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Hey, let's go back; I want to go back to when y'all were living on the farm in Robertsville.
MR. IRWIN: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: I think your brother told me something about you sold eggs.  Or he sold eggs, or you and him both did it for a little business.  What was that about?
MR. IRWIN: That was after we moved up here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.  All right.
 MR. IRWIN: No, Dad sold -- always kept chickens, and that was what you bought.  You didn't go shopping; you went trading.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  You go trade, go in the store to trade.  It was an old term, because most people would take something from the farm and trade it for necessities.
MR. MCDANIEL: There was a fellow, speaking of that, there was a fellow that I interviewed -- what was his name, in Knoxville?  And he grew up there in Oak Ridge, and his dad had a country store, and he also had a cart, horse-drawn cart that he would travel around to the people in the area to sell them --
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, traveling.
MR. MCDANIEL: A traveling store to sell them stuff.
MR. IRWIN: Well, Jay Nash Copeland; would it have been Nash Copeland?
MR. MCDANIEL: No, it wasn't Nash Copeland; it was -- because I know him; I've interviewed David a couple of times, his son.
MR. IRWIN: Oh, his son.
MR. MCDANIEL: But it was -- I'll think on it and I'll remember it.  This was way --
MR. IRWIN: It was before my --
MR. MCDANIEL: Way, you know, probably -- he might've been gone by the time.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, there was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Because this was in the teens and twenties, I think, when he did that.
MR. IRWIN: There was a large store, old building, Keyes.  Keyes was the name.  And it was on the property my uncle lived on, but it wasn't -- and all the old fixtures and things were still in it.  So it possibly could've been.
MR. MCDANIEL: Could've been.  Could've been that.
MR. IRWIN: Could've been, because it had been out of business for I don't know how long.
MR. MCDANIEL: So y'all -- so when you moved up here to this area you stayed here.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: You ever think about going back to Oak Ridge after years -- years later?
MR. IRWIN: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: No?
MR. IRWIN: Oh, I did -- yeah, have gone back some, for some while before they built houses all over the land.  In the beginning the -- it was at that time, you know, segregation was still intact, so they built for the black workers homes on our farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And that part we couldn't see or tell, but --
MR. MCDANIEL: And it was fenced in, wasn't it?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where you couldn't get in there.
MR. IRWIN: Oh no, no; we didn't -- no, no, we didn't get to go back until after the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Gates opened.  Oh yeah, after the gates opened in '49.
MR. IRWIN: Gates opened.  Yeah, somewhere in there.  Yeah.  I forget now.  No, but I wish I could go back and it be like it was when I was a kid, running around down there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Like it was.  Oh sure.  It's all changed, hasn't it?  It's all gone.
MR. IRWIN: All changed.  Yeah.  And sacrificed, our parents did a great lot, but for the results it was worth it for the whole country.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Now did they feel that way?  I mean did they -- I'm sure they --
MR. IRWIN: There was a war effort, it was -- said it was for the war effort.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And that's all, all they knew.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure there were a lot of mixed emotions, because they wanted -- they hated to give up their farm, but they wanted to do what they could to help with the war effort.
MR. IRWIN: I think so.  Particularly since we had been relocated to that area and wasn't established with kinfolks.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.

MR. IRWIN: When we lived in the Norris Basin there was cousins and cousins all real close, and they were close together.  And then they moved there, some of the cousins moved to Jefferson County and Knoxville and Blount Counties, and so they were scattered.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So it wasn't as hard; they didn't have roots as much as people that had been there all their lives.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And those are the ones that really, really did have a problem with it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  I understand.  
MR. IRWIN: And it was a problem.  Well sharecrop -- a sharecropper, one of my good friends, best friends, and he had hurt his back and he couldn't -- he had some crops to get out and had orders to move, and he couldn't get out to see about things.  He didn't have -- I don't guess he had an automobile.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And he said he sat in his bedroom one day with a shotgun and there's a bulldozer working right around the house, and he intended to stop that bulldozer if he hit his house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  And he finally, I don't know whether he had any help.  They didn't offer any help for resettling, moving, inconvenience, or anything.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: And so he did -- I don't know how, but he did find a place, and for some reason a house became available joining us, where my uncle had lived, and he lived there.  And then he got a job with TVA, and was a hard-worker and lived -- made himself a good living.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he?
MR. IRWIN: Came out better than being a sharecropper.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, good.  Now once -- tell me about your life -- about your life when you came, when you moved up here.  Where'd you go to high school or where'd you go to school?
MR. IRWIN: We moved in the middle -- school is closed at Scarboro the 1st of December, so we moved, as I said, in January.  And we started from there to Glen Alpine.  It was the middle of our sixth grade.  So to Glen Alpine, and then to Norris High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?  Okay.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did you do after you graduated high school?
MR. IRWIN: Well, I wasn't -- I didn't have a lot of things in mind were to do, just been used to working on the farm, and it just came natural, kind of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  
MR. IRWIN: I'd first thought about doing something, and then I thought about Dad being by himself and all the work to do, so I just sort of eased into it.  I did a little bit of work at the Farm Bureau in insurance for a little while.  I wasn't a salesman, I was just a rising -- was a very young time in the company's existence.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: So I didn't do that very long.  Other than that, I'd just been --
MR. MCDANIEL: Worked farm?
MR. IRWIN: Back to farm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now did you do that your whole life, or?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you do anything else?
MR. IRWIN: No, I never had another, any job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Never had another job; you were a farmer your whole life.
MR. IRWIN: Right.  Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what -- you know, you've seen a lot of changes, I'm sure.  And I'm sure -- let's talk a little bit about Oak Ridge and its influence on the whole region.
MR. IRWIN: Oh yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: How do you kind of see what that influence has been?
MR. IRWIN: Of course, it's been a great influence -- you know, there's more PhDs in Oak Ridge during construction than anywhere in the country per capita.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: And then you go across into the coal mining section, and there was more uneducated and poor livers than about anywhere.  So a diverse --
MR. MCDANIEL: A real stark contrast, wasn't it?
MR. IRWIN: Very con -- yeah.  Of course, the TVA, of course, that's one of the reasons I think that was built, because of the abundance of power TVA had here from this end of the county.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Yeah, exactly.
MR. IRWIN: And so when you drive in the back roads you used to see houses that were not up to par; now you go in the back roads and you see fine homes, and those are people that have worked in Oak Ridge, as well as other places, but primarily.  So it's made a great change, and it's given -- it's brought a great change in real estate values.
MR. MCDANIEL:  Right.  I'm sure.  
MR. IRWIN: So it's just changed -- I have a farm, a small farm down off Highway 61.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, do you?
MR. IRWIN: And it's three miles or something.  And we grew our hay for the cows.  We'd get four, three or four wagons, we'd load them full of bailed hay and drive up Old Highway 61, and there wasn't very many places cars could pass, but we'd get up to where 61 crosses with Hill Vail and the other road, five or six cars behind us.  Now I understood there's -- I don't know for sure, but 26,000 cars a day go up and down that road.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. IRWIN: And there's no way --
MR. MCDANIEL: No way anybody's pulling a hay wagon.
MR. IRWIN: No way we could do that now.  That was a great change.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: And it -- I tell people -- well, that's not the important, but it's so, so different.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  
MR. IRWIN: You've got a small shopping area out here at the door, so it gives us an easy place to shop or do what we -- find what we need.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Well, you know, the whole area just kind of -- you know, it's going -- every -- it's going to change.  I mean, you know, just even without Oak Ridge it would've changed somewhat.
MR. IRWIN: Well, yes, it would.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, but between TVA and Oak Ridge, I mean, you know, it's really, really, the, you know, last 80 years really changed.
MR. IRWIN: Oh yeah.  Oh yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, it really did.
MR. IRWIN: Oh yeah, it was isolated from commerce, so far from Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: But there's a whole lot of areas that were as well and still are.  But with the Interstate 75 being built it gives us a straight route into Knoxville for medical purposes or --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, it's quick and easy now.
MR. IRWIN: Quick and easy, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is there anything else you want to talk about?  We can talk about whatever you want.  Here's your chance.
MR. IRWIN: Well, I'm not sure of anything much more of interest, except some of the things that happened during our moving.  We -- I knew I was anxious to know where we were going to move to, and I hadn't been up to see the place until shortly before we moved.  And I know in moving there's an old fellow that you couldn't --
MR. MCDANIEL: Try not to rub your shirt.  It's -- the microphone is picking it up.  That's okay.
MR. IRWIN: You couldn't get very much, many trucks.  It wasn't -- there weren't very many trucks to haul.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right.
MR. IRWIN: So one day I was anxious to come up and see the place, and we had a load of, I believe, corn maybe.  And we got within a mile or so and the old truck shifted gears and broke an axle.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh man.  
MR. IRWIN: There we were.  And that was -- it was not a good experience.  
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess not.
MR. IRWIN: And one trip we were loading, had loaded up furnishings from my grandfather's house, and then he had a little trailer he pulled behind his car, and he'd filled it.  And the family all gone; brother John Rice and Mother and Daddy.  And I was going to stay and ride in the truck.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: So we got it loaded and he started to come.  Well, it wouldn't start.  And he worked on it, worked on it, and finally he got back about ten feet with his tools and started throwing them at the truck.  So that night I didn't get to come, though I had to -- we had to sleep -- they came back and we slept on the floor in the house we moved out of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, eventually I guess you got it transferred to another truck or they got that one started.
MR. IRWIN: Well, got that one started, I guess.  I don't remember after that; I just remember the disappointment in not getting to ride in the truck.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  Exactly.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, that was pretty -- we've had a long -- blessed to be lived to be 80 years old, and I do have infirm quite a bit, but still I'm best to be around.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  Now your brother, John Rice, of course, you know, he's -- everybody knows John Rice.
MR. IRWIN: Oh yeah.  Oh yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And he's gone and done some great things.  Were you involved in any of the things that he did?  I mean for --
MR. IRWIN: Not -- no, not that I would take credit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. IRWIN: We helped some in occasions when there was need.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: And as one of my sideline hobbies I would refinish furniture.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  He would buy and sell sometimes, and sometimes keep.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Of course.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  Yeah.  He'd make a good profit on it if he'd sell it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  
MR. IRWIN: There was -- there may still be a piece in the state, I guess it's the museum, and it as downtown in the old memorial, war memorial building.  But no, maybe it was another building.  It's been a long time.
MR. MCDANIEL: In Nashville?
MR. IRWIN: In Nashville.  And there's a place that I -- a piece that I refinished.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, and he -- they took -- he sold it or whatever to them. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right.  Sure.
MR. IRWIN: That sort of thing.  And I try to keep busy.  I can't do very much, but I try to work a little garden in my yard.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  
MR. IRWIN: You know, we've had a -- I worked 11 hours a day for about six days a week and five hours on Sunday.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Well, you know, you worked enough.  You worked a lot, didn't you?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  Yeah, and it's hard to quit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure it is.  I'm sure it is.  
MR. IRWIN: It's not that I always liked to work that much, it's just that I won't get things done.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.  That's exactly right.  I understand.  And there's always something to do on a farm, isn't there?
MR. IRWIN: Oh, yes.  And I can't do --
MR. MCDANIEL: Always a waiting list.
MR. IRWIN: Oh right, exactly.  So our son and a partner are -- he's disabled, completely disabled, but so they're working some on keeping the cattle, cows.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  I understand.  Is there anything else you ought to talk about?
CAROLINE: Did you talk about the difficulty in a lot of people getting moved when they left Oak Ridge?
MR. MCDANIEL: He talked a little bit about that.
MR. IRWIN: As far as repaying, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.  Sure. 
MR. IRWIN: There was one particular place, I know she was a black lady, and she had five acres and her house, and they gave her $500.00.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. IRWIN: That was probably out in the public because it was so --
MR. MCDANIEL: They took advantage of her, didn't they?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  Yes.  
MR. MCDANIEL: They just took advantage of her.
MR. IRWIN: If they would've given extra money for, just for having to move --
MR. MCDANIEL: Having to move, yeah, to help them move.
MR. IRWIN: Have even paid for the moving.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. 
MR. IRWIN: But, and I don't know why, because the project, when they started it, started the building and the-- they paid people; anybody that came could get a job.  They spent money, wasted -- I mean it was --
MR. MCDANIEL: They just backed up the money truck and let it flow, didn't they?
MR. IRWIN: Let it flow.  And they could've used just a little of that and made it so much easier for the people who had to move.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  Sure.  I understand.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  So it was -- today's time if that type project was to come around, even to save our country, I don't believe -- I don't think it could be done.  Not the way they did that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Exactly.
MR. IRWIN: I mean it's just today's times are different.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Exactly.  
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right.  Well, sir, I appreciate you taking time to talk to us.
MR. IRWIN: Well, yeah, you're welcome.  I can just see the old homes and places.  They have pictures of them, and I guess you have seen pictures of them; they're available for the houses and barns and things.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Sure.  
MR. IRWIN: The only thing is when the photographer took the pictures that I have seen, they showed the poorest part of the buildings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. IRWIN: That's right.  I know --
MR. MCDANIEL: If there was a side that didn't look too good, that's what they took a picture of?
MR. IRWIN: That's what they took the picture of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. IRWIN: Yes.  
MR. MCDANIEL: I've never heard that before.  And I've seen those pictures, and they did look kind of rough, you know, those places did.
MR. IRWIN: Yes, they picked out and took the worst views.  I know, because the house that my grandfather lived in on the farm, it was a Victorian house and it had been professionally landscaped.  But the backside didn't have the windows; it was mostly just plain.  That's the picture they took.  They didn't take a straight-in picture with the walk and the line of shrubs to the front as the --
CAROLINE: Mounting block.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah, there was a mounting -- it had in the front the walk went down to the road, and it had the three or four steps down, and then a mounting block, and then a few steps down further.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right.
 MR. IRWIN: It stayed there for a good long while.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did it?
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  But they didn't take anything like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: They didn't take those pictures, did they?
MR. IRWIN: No.  No.  And yeah, well, they just didn't treat people right.  They tried to make them look poor and ignorant, I guess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  Did that influence your feeling about the government?
MR. IRWIN: Not really after the fact, that it was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Once you found out what it was for.
MR. IRWIN: What it was for.  I remember the day that Hiroshima came on the news and they said that it was bombed by the results of the project in the Clinton Engineering Works.  
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Right.  
MR. IRWIN: And I remember coming, we listened to the radio, and my Uncle Leo out here, I remember coming out the road to tell him we'd heard what they were doing in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well my goodness.  All right, well, sir, well thank you very much; I appreciate it.
MR. IRWIN: Yeah.  Well, don't know whether I do you any good or not.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well --

[End of Interview]