Lyon, Margene

              ORAL HISTORY OF MARGENE LYON
Interviewed by Jim Kolb
April 23, 2002 
Mr. Kolb: Okay, Margene, let’s start out by asking you first how and why you or your family first came to Oak Ridge.
Mrs. Lyon: Okay. I was in a small college in South Carolina, Lander College, which is in Greenwood, South Carolina. One of the P.R. men from Union Carbide, which ran the three plants, came down and interviewed some of us. I came to Oak Ridge and went to the Medical Department at K-25.
Mr. Kolb: And when was that?
Mrs. Lyon: That was in 1944, August 1944. The Medical Department had only been open about six weeks when I came. We had fifteen doctors.
Mr. Kolb: At K-25?
Mrs. Lyon: At K-25. Everything went around the clock; it was a big operation. I was a medical secretary. My supervisor, who was head of the Medical Department, was Dr. A. G. Kamer, who came down from Mellon Institute and took over the Medical Department there.
Mr. Kolb: Had you had previous training in medical records?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, at the college, but nothing like what he taught me. At that time, he read the X-rays, he did physicals – everybody had a job which went round the clock. We did physicals on all the subcontractors, so it was a busy, busy place.
Mr. Kolb: That included construction workers?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah.
Mr. Kolb: Everyone. So that was when Happy Valley was still there.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, just being built.
Mr. Kolb: Where did you live?
Mrs. Lyon: I lived in Oak Ridge in a dormitory and rode one of the cattle buses to work every morning.
Mr. Kolb: Which dormitory, do you remember? There were so many of them.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, it was up on the hill where the Garden Apartments are now. It was WV58, and it was just a big dormitory, which I had never experienced, because at Lander, we had suites of rooms. But this was quite an experience because we had girls from everywhere. They had come here from colleges just like I had come.
Mr. Kolb: All women in the dorm?
Mrs. Lyon: All women, yes.
Mr. Kolb: I didn’t know there were dorms at the Garden Apartment area. Were they all just women’s dorms?
Mrs. Lyon: All women’s dorms. The men’s dorms were across the road.
Mr. Kolb: Well, street or whatever. [laughter]
Mrs. Lyon: They were down where the, let’s see – 
Mr. Kolb: Elk’s Club?
Mrs. Lyon: No, no, the YW and all down in there, YWC[A] and all, that’s where the men’s dormitories were.
Mr. Kolb: Well, you mentioned the cattle cars?
Mrs. Lyon: Cattle cars.
Mr. Kolb: Give a little bit more description of why you call them that.
Mrs. Lyon: Okay, the cattle cars were buses that were just like cattle cars today. They rattled, they had seats, not like the buses today, but they had wooden seats along the edges of them. And I just found out where they came from. They came from the 1933 World’s Fair in Chicago. They had all these buses left over, and they brought them to Oak Ridge.
Mr. Kolb: You call them cattle cars.
Mrs. Lyon: They were cattle – because they rattle so. And that’s the only thing that you could ride, you know. And you rode them to work and you rode them home.
Mr. Kolb: Were all the buses that type, or were there other types of buses?
Mrs. Lyon: No, there were other buses, too.
Mr. Kolb: There were so many that they used them all.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh yes. Every fifteen minutes you could get a bus to work.
Mr. Kolb: That’s interesting. Now, you were single at that time, right?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yes.
Mr. Kolb: So let’s go back to your medical records work. How long did you work at K-25?
Mrs. Lyon: I worked from ’44 to the end of ’46.
Mr. Kolb: I see. And then what happened?
Mrs. Lyon: Then I left and was going back to college.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, you hadn’t finished college, okay.
Mrs. Lyon: No, the War was on, and what they did was they gave you – I had a two-year secretarial course at Lander, and they tried to include as much as they could to try to get you out. And so I went back, and my brother had just come home from World War II, and he went with Cannon Mills in Albemarle, North Carolina. They had a hospital, Cabarrus County Hospital, in Concord, North Carolina, which is Kannapolis-Concord – C. A. Cannon did. He wanted me to come there, so I went to Concord and worked for C. A. Cannon and lived in one of his horse stables that they had converted into an apartment for two nurses, two lab techs, and one secretary.
Mr. Kolb: And how long were you there?
Mrs. Lyon: I was there about a year and a half.
Mr. Kolb: I see. But you got back to Oak Ridge some way, right?
Mrs. Lyon: Then I came back to Oak Ridge and got the same job that I had when I left – secretary.
Mr. Kolb: Same doctor?
Mrs. Lyon: No, Dr. Kamer had gone back to Pittsburgh, and my husband to be was Medical Director of K-25.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, I see, okay.
Mrs. Lyon: That’s how I met him.
Mr. Kolb: You went to work for him. And when did you get married, then, how long?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, we didn’t get married until 1956.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, so you worked all that time with him?
Mrs. Lyon: Yes.
Mr. Kolb: And you were there – 
Mrs. Lyon: ’49 to ’56, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: And you saw things settle down a lot then, in other words.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yes. Oak Ridge was different, you know, it was – 
Mr. Kolb: After the War, you mean.
Mrs. Lyon: After, yeah, after the gates were opened, it became like a small southern town.
Mr. Kolb: Right. But where did you live when you came back to Oak Ridge?
Mrs. Lyon: I lived in a dorm.
Mr. Kolb: Another women’s dorm.
Mrs. Lyon: Another dorm, but I lived, as we call it, in Townsite.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, near Jackson Square, closer to Jackson Square.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, right. Then I lived in a little efficiency apartment, which is on Tennessee.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, was it right near, right near Jackson Square, the one across the street from – 
Mrs. Lyon: Right near the Blue Hound Grill.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, just east of the Blue Hound Grill. My wife lived there for a while, later. They’re still active, too.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, right.
Mr. Kolb: Let’s go back a little bit. You were here from ’44 to ’45, end of the War. You might want to describe what your social life and activities were in Oak Ridge during the War, a little bit.
Mrs. Lyon: Okay, as I said, the only transportation we had were buses. We had a lot of dances because we had tennis courts, and that’s where they were usually held, but we also had a lot of recreation halls. So there were a lot of dances, weekends and during the week.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, during the week they had dances?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah. Then the theaters, of course, we had several theaters, so you saw a lot of movies. You played a lot of bridge.
Mr. Kolb: In the rec hall?
Mrs. Lyon: In the rec hall. The rec halls were just a gathering place, and that way you learned all the people that came here. It was a real experience for me because I was from a small southern town, and here are these people from all over everywhere.
Mr. Kolb: They weren’t southern, they weren’t small, they were just everywhere.
Mrs. Lyon: No, right.
Mr. Kolb: Exactly, different dialects and – 
Mrs. Lyon: Right. I couldn’t understand – 
Mr. Kolb: – vernaculars.
Mrs. Lyon: Couldn’t understand half of them; they couldn’t understand me.
Mr. Kolb: Well, I’m sure they would like to try though. But you stayed single.
Mrs. Lyon: Stayed single, yes. I dated a lot of people, because we had a lot of people here. We had a lot of G.I.s and it was fun.
Mr. Kolb: And exciting too, I guess.
Mrs. Lyon: Exciting, right.
Mr. Kolb: I guess Bill Pollock was the one that ran – 
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, definitely.
Mr. Kolb:  – the music for the – 
Mrs. Lyon: Dances.
Mr. Kolb: – the dances. Was that included in the rec halls and the outside ones?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah.
Mr. Kolb: And so there was always something to do. Did you get out of town much?
Mrs. Lyon: Not much. We went to Knoxville. That was a big deal, especially on Saturday. You would go over there and have lunch or dinner and do shopping. And, yeah, that was a big deal.
Mr. Kolb: On one of the buses.
Mrs. Lyon: On one of the buses.
Mr. Kolb: They ran buses there.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: Did you have any particular memories about your interaction with the locals in Knoxville or Clinton or anywhere?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, they didn’t like us.
Mr. Kolb: They didn’t like you. Why?
Mrs. Lyon: They felt that we were foreigners and we were coming in on their property.
Mr. Kolb: They didn’t like your money?
Mrs. Lyon: No. When we went to Knoxville, you always took an extra pair of shoes and you put them at the bus station; you changed your shoes, because if they saw – and of course, [in] Oak Ridge, we didn’t have any paved roads, it was either mud or dust, so we changed shoes so they wouldn’t look down and see that we were from Oak Ridge.
Mr. Kolb: It was obvious. You left your shoes at the bus station?
Mrs. Lyon: At the bus station. You know, they had those twenty-five cents you could put in – it was probably ten cents then – but you could put them in a locker. Course, we’d have two or three, you know, going with me, so we’d all put our shoes in one locker.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, right. But even though you were a southern person, they still didn’t like you.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, no.
Mr. Kolb: I mean, you’re just enough different? They could tell you were from Oak Ridge?
Mrs. Lyon: They could, and they warned the G.I.s.
Mr. Kolb: They what?
Mrs. Lyon: They warned.
Mr. Kolb: Warned. About –
Mrs. Lyon: Going there, that you better be very careful, because, see, they knew that the G.I.s were from Oak Ridge.
Mr. Kolb: I’ll be darned. Well, I’d heard this, you know, from other people, that they were jealous or something.
Mrs. Lyon: They were.
Mr. Kolb: And even a few people who were Tennesseans were looked down on, or not accepted. It wasn’t their speech, it was just Oak Ridge, or the Project or whatever it was called.
Mrs. Lyon: That’s right, it was the Project, and they didn’t approve of it, and I think they really didn’t know what was going on; that was the reason.
Mr. Kolb: Well, yeah. Course nobody else did either.
Mrs. Lyon: No, but we had come in on their property, and they didn’t like us for that I guess, I don’t know.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, yeah, but your money?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh we had the money, because we were making good money.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, right.
Mrs. Lyon: Now, not compared to what they make today.
Mr. Kolb: No, but for then, yeah.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, but at that time.
Mr. Kolb: Well, that’s interesting, yeah. Okay, so you had plenty of money, or enough money to spend. Of course, there wasn’t a lot of things you could buy either.
Mrs. Lyon: No, no, right.
Mr. Kolb: You had to do what you could. So you experienced the end of the war and the opening of the gates, all those big events, right?
Mrs. Lyon: Mhm.
Mr. Kolb: Where were you when the war ended? Were you working?
Mrs. Lyon: I was here. And when the bomb – 
Mr. Kolb: At the plant?
Mrs. Lyon: At the plant, and when the bomb was dropped, we danced all night long.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, my, is that right? Partied.
Mrs. Lyon: Partied all night long.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, and where did you physically hear it, hear the news, I mean, the first time? Do you remember?
Mrs. Lyon: No. I guess, I guess I was in the dorm.
Mr. Kolb: In the dorm.
Mrs. Lyon: In the dorm.
Mr. Kolb: It was during the daytime?
Mrs. Lyon: No, it was in the evening, and then the dance, one of the big dances was in, on the tennis courts across from the Garden Apartments now.
Mr. Kolb: Right, okay, yeah, right.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah. So we partied all night, but this Dr. Kamer expected me at work, and I went to work. Very few of them were there, but I was there.
Mr. Kolb: So this is like a spontaneous party? I mean, there was no warning about the bomb being dropped. And Bill Pollock was ready with his music.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, he was ready all the time, yes.
Mr. Kolb: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. And then, of course, the news was out, and you went to Knoxville then? Were you were treated any differently after the people knew what the project was about?
Mrs. Lyon: No, they treated you about the same. Although then, we started to get cement out here, and so your shoes weren’t dirty, so they couldn’t tell what we were.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, and then in ’49, was it, the gates were opened?
Mrs. Lyon: ’50, no.
Mr. Kolb: 1950, okay.
Mrs. Lyon: No, the gates weren’t open, the city wasn’t open till ’56? Isn’t that correct?
Mr. Kolb: No, no, I came in ’54, and they were open. I thought the gates were open.
Mrs. Lyon: No, they weren’t open, they were – 
Mr. Kolb: Well, anyway – 
Mrs. Lyon: It doesn’t matter.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, but, but that was – 
Mrs. Lyon: I came back in ’49, yeah, and of course it was still closed.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, oh, when you came back from working in North Carolina, it was ’49, yeah.
Mrs. Lyon: Mhm.
Mr. Kolb: Well, somewhere in between there. So you experienced the gate opening.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes.
Mr. Kolb: And that was another big deal too, I guess.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, and celebrities – 
Mrs. Lyon: All the celebrities coming in, right.
Mr. Kolb: And politicians. [laughter]
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yes.
Mr. Kolb: So you were living in Oak Ridge then as a single woman, like a lot of other women who were here. The town was getting more settled and paved, and whatever – more shopping, I guess. Did you ever think you would leave Oak Ridge or did you just like the work here?
Mrs. Lyon: I liked my work, yes; I liked what I was doing.
Mr. Kolb: And who you worked for.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, right.
Mr. Kolb: And the money was good too.
Mrs. Lyon: The money was good. Of course, the number of doctors were, you know, decreasing out there. They didn’t need – because we didn’t have that many coming in – people, you know. But in fact when I came back in ’49, they were running people – I shouldn’t say – they weren’t running, they were doing physicals on people that were being terminated because they didn’t need that. But it was very busy, and that’s the reason. Eventually, the doctors out there sent their – it was so restricted that the doctors read their own X-rays out there. So then after it wasn’t as restricted, we sent them out to Knoxville to some of the dermatologists over there. They had been told what was happening out here and what to look for, and what have you. And so they sent a lot of their x-rays into Knoxville to be read. The Army had the hospital here, and a lot of our stuff was sent from K-25 up to the Army hospital here to be read. I guess they had to prepare the people who were looking for something. I would sit in – this was part of my job, to sit in with the doctor, and he read the X-ray in front of us, and I took it down, and that took a long time. Today, they’d put it all on a computer.
Mr. Kolb: So you were recording a lot of information.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: Did you ever experience any people who had accidents coming in for medical treatment out there? 
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah. Sure did. K-25 is a large medical facility, and we had surgery rooms, we had physical, you know, burn rooms and – for everything coming in.
Mr. Kolb: I imagine Y-12 would’ve had something similar to that.
Mrs. Lyon: I’m sure they did.
Mr. Kolb: A lot of people there too.
Mrs. Lyon: Right, I’m sure they did. Right.
Mr. Kolb: A lot of potential for accidents. Did you have interaction with those – your similar people in Y-12?
Mrs. Lyon: No, believe it or not, the three plants – the people that worked at K-25 stayed to themselves. Y-12 and X-10. And I don’t know why.
Mr. Kolb: Well, could it have been the secrecy emphasis?
Mrs. Lyon: No, it was just you didn’t have any contact with them. Mostly your contacts were at work, and so you knew the people at work.
Mr. Kolb: Well, when you socialized, back in town, you know it was everybody.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: But you didn’t discuss plant activity.
Mrs. Lyon: No.
Mr. Kolb: During the war at least.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: And that was what you were supposed to do, or not do. Did you ever experience any activity of what we call the F.B.I. or security people checking up on people or checking up on things?
Mrs. Lyon: Only one time. I went to a dance, and I had a black Chesterfield coat, and at that time, you had to have a so-called coupon to get coats and shoes and what have you, just like gas rationing. And I had gotten a new Chesterfield coat and went to a dance, and this girl had stolen my Chesterfield coat.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, I see. At the dance?
Mrs. Lyon: At the dance.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, my.
Mrs. Lyon: And I was very, very upset. So I went to work the next day and told Dr. Kamer. I didn’t know that Dr. Kamer had taken some insurance out on my clothes, because he was afraid that’s what would happen. So he said, don’t worry about it, we’ll get the money. Well, I didn’t want the money; I wanted my coat. Some of the G.I.s, I told them of course, and finally one G.I. came and he says, I know where your coat is.
Mr. Kolb: And who has it.
Mrs. Lyon: And who has it.
Mr. Kolb: I’ll be darned.
Mrs. Lyon: So I went – I would never do this now – I went over to a girls’ dorm and I told her that she had my coat and I wanted it. And I went in her room and got the coat.
Mr. Kolb: She let you in? Or you physically went in?
Mrs. Lyon: I just went to the closet and there it was. Well, she happened to be working at one of the labs at K-25, and, of course, the F.B.I. came in, and she was terminated. You just don’t steal.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, right, but the F.B.I. got involved. I guess there were no police, security.
Mrs. Lyon: No, all plainclothesmen, you know.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, right. So they had to get involved in it. So it wasn’t a war secrets act, but it just, common theft.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: Did your boss report this to the F.B.I. or did you?
Mrs. Lyon: Right, he did call them. He kind of took me under his wing.
Mr. Kolb: Well, it was not a happy incident, but at least it turned out you got your coat back.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: I guess that gal sort of learned a lesson. I don’t know.
Mrs. Lyon: I hope she did. Course you had people from everywhere, you know, but if you stole, you didn’t work here. You didn’t have to lock your doors or anything. 
Mr. Kolb: Well, I’m sure there was something of that going on. I mean, there’s a few bad apples in every pile, as they say. But at least they should have known that they wouldn’t get away with it, or probably the chance was they wouldn’t get away with it.
Mrs. Lyon: No.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, so did you ever wonder what was going on, what all this activity was for?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, I wondered, you know, and, course, I was in with the group out there, but you just didn’t ask.
Mr. Kolb: But it’s natural to wonder what could come out of that money and people and everything else.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, right.
Mr. Kolb: I’ve heard that people outside thought it was some sort of bomb or artillery training facility or something like that. And they’d call it the Kingston something Range, you know, just guessing.
Mrs. Lyon: Right, just guessing. That’s what they were doing.
Mr. Kolb: Well, do you have any feelings about the use of the bomb, when it was used?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, definitely, I thought, yeah – course, my husband to be was on his way. He was in [unclear: Ugublastok] Czechoslovakia, getting ready to go to the South Pacific when it was dropped, and if it hadn’t – 
Mr. Kolb: He was in the Army.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, he was a captain. He was a battalion surgeon. And he would have gone to South Pacific, which meant that we would’ve lost a lot of men. And so he didn’t have to go to the South Pacific. He came back here, and yes, I feel very strongly about it, that if it hadn’t been for the bomb, we would have lost a lot of people.
Mr. Kolb: Right.
Mrs. Lyon: And I had a brother that was in – 
Mr. Kolb: The service also.
Mrs. Lyon: – was in the service also. In fact, when I graduated from high school, most of the guys went to college maybe one year and then went into the service, and so I had lots and lots of friends in the service, overseas and whatever.
Mr. Kolb: So you, when did you graduate from high school?
Mrs. Lyon: I graduated in ’42.
Mr. Kolb: ’42, right at the beginning of the war. Okay, so we got you through the war and you’re working here for your husband to be, and you knew him quite a long time before you finally got ‘hitched,’ as they say.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah, I did.
Mr. Kolb: But were you dating – 
Mrs. Lyon: Other people.
Mr. Kolb: Including him, or other people?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: You were ‘playing the field,’ as we say, driving them all crazy, I’m sure.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: But then you finally got married in fifty – 
Mrs. Lyon: Six.
Mr. Kolb: Six, ’56. Did you quit work then, or did you have a child soon, or did you work?
Mrs. Lyon: No, let’s see, we got married in ’56, and Joe, my son, wasn’t born until ’58.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, and where did you live then, when you got married?
Mrs. Lyon: We lived in one of the Garden Apartments, a furnished Garden Apartment.
Mr. Kolb: Which were brand new probably, or very new.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, right, and then we bought a house where I’m living now on Lawrence Lane. Then we needed more room, so we added more room to the house that had been built.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, so you bought after the houses began being sold in ’57, ’58, as I recall.
Mrs. Lyon: We bought it in ’58, but this house had been built, wasn’t a cemesto.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, I see, it was not a cemesto, built after the war.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: On Lawrence Lane, which is off of – 
Mrs. Lyon: Louisiana.
Mr. Kolb: Louisiana, okay.
Mrs. Lyon: At one time, there were a lot of flattops there. I have people come up to ask if they could get out of the car and look around. This is where they lived when they were – but there were a lot of flattops in that area.
Mr. Kolb: All these temporary houses, flattops, the hutments, were removed. Do you know where they went or who bought them or how they were disposed of?
Mrs. Lyon: They were for sale. I have no idea. The hutments, of course – and that has just come up recently – we had a lot of nurses living in hutments.
Mr. Kolb: You did?
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, we did.
Mr. Kolb: I thought it was only men. Oh, wait, I’m thinking about Hutment Village. Now, there were other hutments, though, right? Not in the Downtown area.
Mrs. Lyon: Out toward K-25.
Mr. Kolb: I see. You mean in Happy Valley?
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, and then we had –
Mr. Kolb: Were they the same kind of blocks, you know, 30x30 blocks, as you had in Hutment Village, kind of?
Mrs. Lyon: Mhm. Just like Whitman.
Mr. Kolb: Grady Whitman?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah.
Mr. Kolb: Coalfiresville?
Mrs. Lyon: Mhm.
Mr. Kolb: Because I have been given the impression that only men lived in those, in the Hutment Village; but there were other hutments for women. I thought it was just men.
Mrs. Lyon: And then, where Cove Lake State Park – they turned that over and allowed the G.I.s with their wives to come up there and live. And they lived in the cabins that they have now, and everybody used the kitchen that they have now. It hasn’t changed much. 
Mr. Kolb: You mean the restaurant kitchen?
Mrs. Lyon: Uh-huhn.
Mr. Kolb: I see.
Mrs. Lyon: Everybody that lived up there. We had some nurses that lived up there, so I used to go up there on the weekends – this was a big deal – and visit with them, because you could go swimming and eat with them. But you still had to ride a bus, because we didn’t have any transportation. But they did allow the G.I.s to take over Cove Lake.
Mr. Kolb: I’ll be darned. So they ran a bus daily for those people to come in?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: I never knew that. So that was just one of the places that they – extra housing.
Mrs. Lyon: Right, they needed extra housing, and they let them take it over.
Mr. Kolb: Was it a state park then?
Mrs. Lyon: I guess it was.
Mr. Kolb: But the buildings were there.
Mrs. Lyon: The same buildings that are there now, right.
Mr. Kolb: Well, that’s a new one on me. Who knows where else they had housing. I was thinking that was one place. But again, there were houses, there were hutments all over town.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, right.
Mr. Kolb: And women lived in them too.
Mrs. Lyon: Right, well, there was husband and wife in a hutment.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, there were also married couples? Just the two? Okay, I’m learning more every day, which is not a surprise. I always thought these were single residences only. Because there was no indoor plumbing in the hutments.
Mrs. Lyon: No, they had a – 
Mr. Kolb: Common – 
Mrs. Lyon: Common, yeah, like a campground now.
Mr. Kolb: No different than camping in a wood box. But these all got moved real fast after the war; the population went down fast. So the house you bought was where a hutment was.
Mrs. Lyon: It’s where the flattops used to be.
Mr. Kolb: Flattop was bigger than a hutment, right?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yes, right.
Mr. Kolb: Were there flattops left in Oak Ridge up on West Outer near Illinois Avenue? Are those flattops?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah.
Mr. Kolb: They’re still there.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, I deliver meals-on-wheels to the flattops. Except most of them are not flat now. They’ve had their roofs, you know – 
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, right, there are very few flattops because they’re real small houses.
Mrs. Lyon: Very small, but surprising – I mean, large families lived in a three-bedroom flattop, you know, and they had one bath. It’s not like it is now. But they had three bedrooms and one bath, and a lot of people lived in there. They had a job, and they were making good money, and they brought their family. That’s the reason we had so many schools, because of the number of children we had.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, yeah, being born right and left.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: And I understand there was no mortuary here during the war years.
Mrs. Lyon: No, no.
Mr. Kolb: And if somebody died, there were mortuaries around in the surrounding communities.
Mrs. Lyon: Right, and they usually took them back to their homes. But the hospital here, of course, was run by military. And we still have two of the OBGYN men here.
Mr. Kolb: Really?
Mrs. Lyon: No, I guess we just have one. Dr. Pugh was here and Dr. Preston was children. He was here.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, okay, I didn’t realize they went back that far.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes.
Mr. Kolb: Of course, they’re both retired now.
Mrs. Lyon: Dr. Preston’s not; I just talked with him this week.
Mr. Kolb: I didn’t know. I mean, I knew he was a doctor, but I didn’t know – 
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, he’s still practicing. I think he’s told me he’s been practicing sixty-five years.
Mr. Kolb: O my goodness. No law against that.
Mrs. Lyon: No.
Mr. Kolb: He’s probably in his third generation of customers.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, right. In fact he’s practicing in the office that my husband and I had in the orthopedic clinic. Dr. Cleary moved the children’s clinic over to that, right across from the hospital.
Mr. Kolb: So you, but then after the war you were married and got your first home, and your child, your son was born in fifty – 
Mrs. Lyon: Eight.
Mr. Kolb: Eight, you said, yeah. And what school did he go to down there?
Mrs. Lyon: Well he went to Linden, and then Oak Ridge, graduated from Oak Ridge High School. Then he graduated from UT.
Mr. Kolb: And he’s still here working.
Mrs. Lyon: He’s the Navy Commander.
Mr. Kolb: He’s the Navy Commander now? Where, what – in reserve?
Mrs. Lyon: No, he’s in the Mediterranean today.
Mr. Kolb: Your son is?
Mrs. Lyon: I have two sons.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, so your other one – 
Mrs. Lyon: Is the broker, with Edward Jones.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, I thought you had said one son, excuse me.
Mrs. Lyon: No, I have two.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, okay, your other son is in the active service right now.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, he’s in the Mediterranean someplace.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, my. So he’s been in quite a while.
Mrs. Lyon: He’s been in twenty years.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, well, he’s a career Navy.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes.
Mr. Kolb: Well, any thoughts you might want to add to your experiences here, either during the wartime or later? Any interesting events that you might want to offer?
Mrs. Lyon: I don’t – Jim, I don’t know.
Mr. Kolb: Any particularly unusual people you met, that sort of thing?
Mrs. Lyon: Well, I became very active as my children went into school. That was an experience because of so many people [from other countries]. [During] show-and-tell, [instead of it] being a new pair of shoes and jacket, it would be something from the culture of the children within the kindergarten. This was an education within itself, all these different people from different countries. So I became very active in the school.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, and you met a lot more people that way, of course.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah. The people in Oak Ridge have always been a part of the school system.
Mr. Kolb: Right. Cause you went to the old Linden school, right?
Mrs. Lyon: My first two went to the – well, all three of them went to old Linden for a year or two. Then they tore that down and built a new Linden. And they could walk out my back door and go up to old Linden, so it was very convenient. We had a lot of children around where I lived, and some of them are still here in Oak Ridge. It’s surprising the number of people that have stayed here in Oak Ridge. When they went into the universities and colleges and got the G.I.s, the engineers, to come down here, when they said they were coming to Tennessee, they thought we were barefoot and outdoor plumbing. And once they got here, they saw that it was a beautiful country that was surrounded by mountains and lakes, and it was surprising the number of G.I.s that stayed here.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, there are. I know several. A lot of them did stay.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, right, they stayed here.
Mr. Kolb: They got good jobs.
Mrs. Lyon: They got good jobs with Union Carbide; they just flipped it right over. Then a lot of them went to South Charleston [West Virginia] to the plant in Union Carbide up there, but a lot of them stayed here.
Mr. Kolb: Right.
Mrs. Lyon: But I went into real estate, enjoyed every minute of it.
Mr. Kolb: When did you do that?
Mrs. Lyon: Let’s see, it was in the early seventies, I guess.
Mr. Kolb: Which company did you work with?
Mrs. Lyon: Well, the first time, I went with Parker Smollen Insurance Company, and they had just taken over a lot of these houses in Oliver Springs, which they were selling for three hundred dollars, four hundred dollars, like this. Anyway, that’s the first company, and – 
Mr. Kolb: Now, the houses in Oliver Springs, were they – 
Mrs. Lyon: What happened is they were repossessed, and for three or four hundred dollars, you could pick up their payments and get a house, and you know, quite nice. And I enjoyed it. Then I went to work for Chris Power, who had Century 21. Then when he closed, I went with Volunteer Realty out of Knoxville, and that’s where I retired my license. But some of the houses that I had watched, like the cemestos being sold for three hundred dollars, like an “A”, that, if you were living in it – no eight hundred dollars. If you were living in an “A”, you got first option. The “A”s sold for eight hundred dollars. Top price on the “D”s and “F” was three thousand. So then over near Jefferson, they were building new homes up there, so we were selling those, and we had a lot of people coming in here to work. Very, very busy, and I enjoyed it very much.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, a lot of activity.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, a lot of activity, and then, of course, Volunteer was Knoxville and Oak Ridge, so I enjoyed that too. And it was a large company, you know; I enjoyed that.
Mr. Kolb: So you had some dealings with Knoxville in addition to Oak Ridge.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: It kept you moving around a lot.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes. But then – 
Mr. Kolb: But your husband was a doctor – 
Mrs. Lyon: He was family practice.
Mr. Kolb: – in family practice.
Mrs. Lyon: He was Medical Director at K-25, so he decided that he wanted to go in family practice, because his father had been in family practice in Knoxville.
Mr. Kolb: He was from Knoxville?
Mrs. Lyon: He was from Knoxville. We had three children and two dogs and we couldn’t go back to college, so we went to UMWA Hospital in Wise, Virginia for a year, and he saw a lot of children, delivered a lot of babies, and then we came back. The doctors here wanted him to come back to Oak Ridge. They didn’t have any offices here, professional buildings of any kind.
Mr. Kolb: And what year was this then?
Mrs. Lyon: This was in ’63, I guess, ’63 or ’64. So we went in – two of the doctors had converted one of the dormitories into a professional building across from the hospital. So we went into an office there, upstairs, and we had an air conditioner in every window. There was no insulation or anything. Anyway, that’s where all the doctors were. I mean, we didn’t have any building. Finally, Dr. Spray built the orthopedic clinic, and we bought into that building there, and so Joe moved over – we moved over there, and that’s where he retired from. But after he retired, I didn’t sell much real estate, and then once he died, if you sell real estate, you have to sell it twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, so I gave it up then, but I miss it. Very, very interesting. 
Mr. Kolb: Well you had a busy life, with three children and a doctor husband.
Mrs. Lyon: Very, very interesting. And we made house calls.
Mr. Kolb: You say “we.” You and your husband together?
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, and we’d take the children with us because, see, we’d have to do it at night, and so we’d put the three children in there and go make house calls.
Mr. Kolb: Family practice.
Mrs. Lyon: Family. That was the name of the game.
Mr. Kolb: Family’s coming to visit. Hope the kids don’t catch anything while they were – 
Mrs. Lyon: We didn���t go in the house.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, I see. Yeah, that was the good old days with the family and the house calls.
Mrs. Lyon: Yes, right. And you don’t hear of that now.
Mr. Kolb: Well, there’s a few exceptions to that, but not much. Well, that’s interesting. That’s a very busy life, that’s for sure. So you had three children.
Mrs. Lyon: Let’s see. [refers to photograph] There they are. That’s Joe, then Lindy.
Mr. Kolb: And where does he live now?
Mrs. Lyon: He’s in Virginia Beach. He’s stationed out of Norfolk.
Mr. Kolb: Oh, he’s in the service also? 
Mrs. Lyon: Who?
Mr. Kolb: Lindy?
Mrs. Lyon: No, no, no, Lindy’s here. She’s a Systems Manager at Y-12.
Mr. Kolb: Excuse me, your daughter. Okay Eva Lindsey.
Mrs. Lyon: Lyon.
Mr. Kolb: Lyon. 
[Side B]
Mr. Kolb: Well you’ve got two out of three here in Oak Ridge.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: That’s pretty good.
Mrs. Lyon: That’s pretty good.
Mr. Kolb: And grandchildren too, of course, I assume.
Mrs. Lyon: Of course, Joseph, when he retires, he’s coming back and fish under Solway Bridge and catch carp.
Mr. Kolb: Like he did when he was a kid?
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: Well, good for him. I hope he catches more than carp if he wants to eat anything. Okay, so in other words, Oak Ridge has caught on to your children a little bit.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah, yes.
Mr. Kolb: Okay, well, any other memories you want to record about whatever? You talked a lot about your school activities and you say how many different kinds of people you [met] way after the war. Would you say Oak Ridge is a unique community in that respect?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, definitely. The people of Abbeville, where I’m from, is a very small town. And they just could not get over my mother and dad allowing me to come up here. Because once I came up, then they went down to interview – the F.B.I., of course, had to – you had to get a clearance, so they went to the principal and they went to everybody there, and, you know, they just couldn’t understand. 
Mr. Kolb: They thought you were in trouble?
Mrs. Lyon: They didn’t know what was happening to me. But anyway, I enjoyed it very much. I wouldn’t take anything for coming here.
Mr. Kolb: Hear that a lot.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: Yep, and it was kind of an accident, but yeah, it happens. And that was the old saying, ‘Well someone’s gotta do it.’ What ‘it’ is, we didn’t know.
Mrs. Lyon: Right.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, well, that’s good. Well, we can terminate it here unless you want to offer anything else for right now, but that’s good.
Mrs. Lyon: No that’s fine.
Mr. Kolb: Okay.
[break in recording]
Mrs. Lyon: Finally I realized what she was talking about and then she looked at me kind of funny, and she said, “Have you seen any stills lately?” And I said, “No ma’am, but if you go over this ridge, you can see as many as you want to.” Well that satisfied her. I’m sure that she thinks, you know, we’re still barefoot and – 
Mr. Kolb: Corncob pipes.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, right. But anyway, it’s amazing. I enjoy telling them because it surprises them, and I thought, well, I taught somebody something today.
Mr. Kolb: Right. Well, when you say you tell visitors at the Welcome Center a history lesson – give me your sample of a history lesson. Or what do you mean when you say ‘history lesson’?
Mrs. Lyon: In the beginning, this was just farmland, and they bought it from the farmers, ‘they’ being the government. Fifty-nine thousand acres, and paid them forty-four dollars an acre. Three reasons we were here, we needed plenty of electricity, we needed water for barges, and we were between two ridges. Those are the three reasons we’re here. And I show them on the map that we had a fence like this, and that when the bomb was dropped, we had seventy-five thousand people working here, and everything went round the clock. And then I tell them about the cemestos, the houses that were built, and cemesto being the material they used, and I tell them about the “A”, “B”, “C”, “D”, “F”s, and “G”s.
Mr. Kolb: “G”s also?
Mrs. Lyon: Huhn?
Mr. Kolb: I never heard of anything beyond “F”.
Mrs. Lyon: Well, the “E”s are the duplexes, “E1”, “E2”.
Mr. Kolb: But you said “G”, also.
Mrs. Lyon: “G”, uh-huhn, on Alabama, off Alabama, there’s some “G”s. They are smaller than an “A”.
Mr. Kolb: I never heard about that. Smaller than an “A”.
Mrs. Lyon: Uh-huhn. They are smaller than an “A”, and there are not too many of them.
Mr. Kolb: They’re cemestos?
Mrs. Lyon: They’re cemestos, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: Just not very many of them. Well, that’s new to me, okay.
Mrs. Lyon: And I also tell them about the schools and that we have had only one church, Chapel on the Hill. The Jews used it on Saturday, and the Catholics, Baptists, and Methodists had one hour on Sunday, and then got out. That’s surprising to them. But now we have a church and a bank on every corner. Then I tell them about the different [shopping centers] like Grove Center, Jackson Square, that still stand, because that’s the way it was built, you know, near the school. Then I tell them about the houses that were here, then the houses that have been built and which direction they’re in, and that our population runs around thirty thousand.
Mr. Kolb: Do you tell them about the cattle cars too?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yes, I tell them about the cattle cars and where they came from. And about [how] if you had someone outside the – I don’t like the word ‘reservation’ because it sounds like I’m an Indian, but that’s what they call it – but if you had someone on the outside – in fact, Dr. Kamer, who was my boss at K-25, said, “Margene, I interviewed a doctor from South Carolina today, and he asked me one question. He wanted to know if his wife could get in here if she didn’t have a pass, and I told him ‘no.’ They had had a bad divorce, so he took the job and stayed here three years so she couldn’t get in.” But I tell them how, if you had somebody outside, you had to go to Jackson Square, get a pass, get on the bus, and go to Elza Gate, and when they decided to leave, you had to do the same thing. Also, at the Visitor’s Center, I’ve met a lot of people that were married at the Chapel on the Hill, and they could not send out invitations to their wedding, because the people couldn’t come in here. It’s real interesting.
Mr. Kolb: Yeah, right. Of course, a lot of the younger people don’t know anything about World War II or the Manhattan Project, you know; they don’t even know what it means. Well there’s a lot of stories you could weave into that.
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, yeah.
Mr. Kolb: I came in ’54, and things were a lot more settled then. There were still a lot of changes from then till now, but what impresses me is how – as I understand it, the town of Oak Ridge was designed by Owen Skidmore, the mayor, and an architectural firm in New York City for a size population of ten thousand initially, and how in ’44, seventy-five thousand people were here. And where, of course, did they all live? Of course, eventually the trailers, and the hutments and all of that stuff – which is mostly gone – how that was such a tremendous change, and how everything was just bedlam, constant, constant activity, night and day, day and night, and the factories never closed, and the stuff never stops, and how was it all successful?
Mrs. Lyon: Oh, right.
Mr. Kolb: In two years and four months, from conception to Alamogordo test, you know, incredible, impossible, and yet it happened.
Mrs. Lyon: And it was a secret. Today, the media would be down here within twelve hours.
Mr. Kolb: Well, if you had a fence around it, they’d be climbing over it, being arrested, just because there’s a fence there.
Mrs. Lyon: Right. But it was kept. Every once in a while, you would hear something, say, “This was the best kept secret since the Manhattan Project.”
Mr. Kolb: That’s right, yeah.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, and I think they’re right too.
Mr. Kolb: There were a few people that either knew about it or guessed it. Then their problem was: did they keep it a secret to themselves? Like Grady Whitman says, he guessed it from looking at a physics book in the library, and how certain pages about nuclear fission were all very highly used. He said [to himself], “Well that must be what we’re doing here; we’re doing something with nuclear fission. Wow, probably.” He didn’t tell anybody, but that’s what he tells now, that he guessed it, and he guessed right. There were a few other people I’ve heard who guessed it, but they didn’t know for sure.
Mrs. Lyon: Yeah, everybody was guessing.
Mr. Kolb: That’s just the way it was.
[end of recording]