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ORAL HISTORY OF LAVADA CHISHOLM
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
December 14, 2012
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is December 14, 2012. And I am at the home of Mrs. Lavada Chisholm here in Oak Ridge. Mrs. Chisholm, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us. Tell me a little bit about where you were born and your family and where you grew up.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I was born in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, at Rutherford County. And I grew up in that area. I went to Holloway High School; that's where I graduated from. When I went to elementary school, the school was named Dillard, I think about the street I live on; it was Dillard Grammar School that I went to.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now what year were you born?
MRS. CHISHOLM: I was born 1925.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1925.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: And did you have brothers and sisters?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I had one sister, Ruby Harris. She was Bright. And I had one brother, Arthur D. Bright. And he went into the Navy when he was 18 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did your mom and dad do?
MRS. CHISHOLM: My daddy worked on the railroad, that was his job, working on the -- but he went in the World War I. He was, went to World War I.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. And then I think about my brother, he was in World War II.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And my mother was just a house-maker.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. So you grew up in Murfreesboro, or was it outside of Murfreesboro?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It was more or less outside, a little place called Barfield.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: About five miles or less from the city.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Of course, now they have been cooperating -- they have moved the --
MR. MCDANIEL: The city limits?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, the city limits is what I'm trying to say.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: They have a high school out there and everything at Barfield. It doesn't look like the same place anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so what was it like growing up there? I mean, this was the, you know, '20s and '30s in the South.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, as far as I can remember it was just -- to me it was just comfortable. They had farms, you know, and they farmed and this is how they raised the vegetables and the chickens. And I remember my mother used to raise a lot of turkeys, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: And we would feed them oatmeal. And only after I grew up I just didn't really like oatmeal anymore. And of course now I eat a lot of oatmeal because it's supposed to be healthy for you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Old-fashioned oatmeal. But they raised 30 to 40 turkeys, you know. We'd go and feed them oatmeal because they would buy those big sacks, I think 50 pounds or 100 pounds of oatmeal to feed the turkeys.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now when you went to school there, was it a segregated school?
MRS. CHISHOLM: The school that I went to attend, Dillard School, yes, it was segregated school, because we walked about a half a mile to the school. And some people had to go farther than that to the school, at Dillard School. And it is not there any longer, so they have buses that they bus the children to a different school.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you graduated from high school.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I graduated from the grammar school in eighth grade, and then left the grammar school and went to Holloway High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Holloway High School.
MRS. CHISHOLM: In Murfreesboro, the city, and graduated from there.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then when you graduated, what did you do?
MRS. CHISHOLM: That year my mother passed. And then it's World War II had started. So I knew that we'd have to get jobs or do something. And we found out from the employment office that they had this place in Oak Ridge. If we had known that they were looking for a place to build a plant or something of the sort. We didn't know what kind of plant they was going to build.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: So we went to the employment office and they told us that we need to get our Social Security card, me and my sister. When I say "we," I'm talking about my sister.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: So we went there and got a Social Security card and we came to East Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year was that?
MRS. CHISHOLM: 1944. I graduated -- my mother passed that year and I had graduated that year, and then as she passed we came up here to look for a job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was your sister older or younger than you?
MRS. CHISHOLM: No, my sister's younger than I.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. All right. So you and your sister came to Oak Ridge.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, my sister and I came.
MR. MCDANIEL: In '44.
MRS. CHISHOLM: 1944.
MR. MCDANIEL: And your dad, he stayed here?
MRS. CHISHOLM: My daddy had passed long before then, when I was a small --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, had he?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Because he went to World War I, and when he came back he was -- they had to -- well, he was gassed, you know, in that war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And then he had died in the Memphis Hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now who took care of you and your sister after your mother died? Or no, you -- she died the year you graduated, didn't she?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, and when she died my grand --
MR. MCDANIEL: So you and your sister decided to come to Oak Ridge.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, we had no other -- because we had decided we needed some jobs, so we had to go to work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: So I was 18 and she was 17. And so we came to East Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: So tell me about coming to Oak Ridge. Tell me what you saw and what was it like when you first got here.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Okay. I'll tell you, we got on the bus and we stopped at Crossville, Tennessee. Now I've told this story in a long time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: The bus driver told us that we couldn't get off in Cross -- if there's anything we wanted, he would get it for us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Because it was a segregated town; they didn't allow any black people there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: So we stayed on the bus, and it was at night when we came, so we didn't want anything. So Crossville's not too far. I didn't realize then how close it was to Knoxville. But we stayed on the bus and came to Knoxville and we got here sometime early that morning.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So what did you do? When you got to Knoxville did you directly get on a bus and come to Oak Ridge?
MRS. CHISHOLM: No. We stayed in Knoxville. We tried to find someplace to stay. So we found a place they called Home for the Girls, and we stayed there until we went to the employment office and applied for work in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now how long did that take, for you to get a job?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, well they was hiring people right off. All you had to do is just fill out papers and everything.
MR. MCDANIEL: And come on.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And come on and ride the bus. So we rode the bus until I decided that I'd move out here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. So after I moved out here I never did move back to Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So where did you two get jobs? And what did you do?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, in Oak Ridge, we got jobs at K-25.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: That's where we -- and in the afternoon they had those trailer buses. I call them trailer because the cabin part was hooked onto the back. And in the afternoon, when the whistle blew, we had to run to catch the bus. If we didn't we would miss it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And so we did that, and that was a little -- that was heavy and it was a little bit hard on me, so I had to stop. And I came over in this area and got a job, and over here they had trailers.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: So I came over in this area and got a job working here. And all in this area they had like A, B, C and all over there. So the lady that was over there, she asked me if I would check the people in during the morning, you know, and I did that, and worked in the trailers until I decided that I wanted to go back to school and do hair.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did you do at K-25? What was your job?
MRS. CHISHOLM: My job was sweeping and cleaning up whatever that was on the floor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: And I think about it a lot of times, I know it was kind of hot stuff, you know, I believe it was; that's just my opinion. I don't know what it was, because a lot of people was having problems with it at that time. I didn't know what it was that we was cleaning up, but it was the dust from ever what they were doing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And was this like in the big K-25 U?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, in the big building -- was the huge building that we had to sweep in that dust on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. Right. Right. So you stayed there for a little while and then you decided to come over here.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I stayed there -- yeah, to get a -- at least get another job, because they was hiring people, you know. So after then I came over here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Came over here. When you mean here, where do you mean?
MRS. CHISHOLM: I came from K-25 to --
MR. MCDANIEL: To Y-12.
MRS. CHISHOLM: No, to this area. This was called Roman Anderson, I think, then.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was called what?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Roman Anderson. And it was a trailer camp --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Roane-Anderson.
MRS. CHISHOLM: -they put people. It was a trailer camp. We came over here and worked and cleaned. Because my sister went to Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: We lived in Knoxville. She got a job in Knoxville. She didn't come over. So I worked here a while until I decided to go back and take cosmetology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now so what year did you decide to go take cosmetology?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It was -- well, that was in '44. It may have been about '46 and '47.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So after the war was over. After World War II ended you went -- you decided to do that?
MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, I don't really think that the war was over at that time, when I decided to take cosmetology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really? Well, the war ended in the fall of '45.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, it did? Well, okay then. Well, it must've been during that time. I guess so.
MR. MCDANIEL: You had probably decided --
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, during that time. Because I remember my brother came back on the bus and they was celebrating in Knoxville. And I didn't know he was coming back. You know, he was in the Navy. And we was on the street, coming down to the bus station to meet somebody. I don't know what it was. But anyway, and I saw him on the street, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: That was really surprising. So we took him on to where we were staying, and the lady -- it was this girls' home, and she let him stay there that-- over that night.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. Until he decided to, you know, to find someplace.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. Now so you were single when you were -- those early years.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I was single then. Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like in Oak Ridge, being a single young woman?
MRS. CHISHOLM: I don't know. We didn't live in Oak Ridge at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's true. You worked in Oak Ridge.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I worked in Oak Ridge, but I lived in Knoxville at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you find -- well, how was it in Knoxville?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It was okay in Knoxville, you know, until after I finished beauty culture, and then I came out here and worked, you know, I worked at the hub, back and forth, and then I decided I'd move to Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So you went to -- so you decided to go to beauty school in Knoxville.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes. Yeah, Lady Alice Beauty College.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what is it called? What was it called?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Lady Alice Beauty College.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really? Okay. Where was that?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It was on -- it was in not Mechanicsville -- Lost -- yeah, Mechanicsville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mechanicsville, okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, on -- I can't even think of that street now. The main street out there, down from Knoxville College.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right, exactly. So you went to beauty college and then you decided to come back to Oak Ridge and work here in the beauty shop.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, beauty shop. But I was living in Knoxville; I went back and forth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Me and a lady by the name of Evelyn Dunwoody, she was much older than I. She said she was coming to Oak Ridge; I said, "I want to go with you too." So we came out here and worked in the beauty shop.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now where -- so tell me about the beauty shop. Where was it located?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It was a double hut that was put together for a beauty shop. They said that they had a barber shop on one side and beauty shop on the other, and it's in that area down there, you know, where I was telling you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me again.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Across the street from -- what is that? Across the street from -- it's down from McDonald's, where McDonald's, in that area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. It was down -- it's down where they're building the new Panera and Aubrey's restaurants. [Note: South Illinois Ave, just after coming into the city.]
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. It's right there.
MR. MCDANIEL: And across from the NOAH weather center there.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now was that just a black beauty shop? I mean just for blacks?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mostly. Yeah, because in that area it was a black hutment down there they had. And then up across there, where Wal-Mart is [South Illinois Avenue], they had a section of houses that they've had for family, and then they had a place where family live -- hutment that family lived in too in that area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. But that was -- at that time was really the black section of Oak Ridge, wasn't it?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, that's right. It was. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now the hutments were, I understand they were fenced in, weren't they?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Some of the -- yeah, especially the men.
MR. MCDANIEL: The women.
MRS. CHISHOLM: The women was fenced in, yes. Mm-hmm. The women was fenced in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right, right, right. So what was it like working? And how long did you work there? You worked there --
MRS. CHISHOLM: Now as far as staying there, I didn't stay there that time. As I was saying, I went back and forth to Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I worked there until they just had built these houses over here, and after they built these houses over here then I came to this area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. But you worked there for a few years, right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: A long -- yes, as long as I could in that -- yes. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that like, working in the beauty shop?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, it was just working there. I had a lot of clientele, people who came to get their hair fixed, and it was convenient for them, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: They had all the equipment and then they had a barber shop on one side and the beauty shop on the other.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now was that run by the government or was it privately-owned? Do you remember?
MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, it probably was run by -- there was two fellows that was that was over that area and the cafeteria, they called Robert -- Bob Watkin and Robert -- I can't even think of his name, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: But they kind of ran things?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, in that area.
MR. MCDANIEL: In that area, right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. They did. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And we was responsible to them. I don't know to what, you know --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. So when they built this community over here you left the beauty shop and you went back to Knoxville, is that correct?
MRS. CHISHOLM: No. Well, when you said "went back," I already lived in Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: You already lived there.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And I would drive -- well, I rode the bus back and forth at that time. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And then they built this place over here.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you decided to move here?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Well, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Because they had -- up here where they have this building up there now -- what do they have up there now? That restaurant. They had a store up there and two or three other little things. They had -- and then they had a beauty shop there too, and I worked there too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. After a while. And that was -- time had passed, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. So when did you move -- when did you move here?
MRS. CHISHOLM: You mean here, when you're talking --
MR. MCDANIEL: When did you move to Oak Ridge to stay?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, when I moved here to stay. Well, I'll tell you what, after they closed that beauty shop over there, I had a beauty shop in the dorm up there for a while.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And then something -- student relations or something, and I had to move from there. And then after then I had gotten married and then they would start selling these houses, but that was two or three years between.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And we bought this house when they started selling the houses.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And then I don't know when that was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mid-'50s probably.
MRS. CHISHOLM: It had to be in -- yeah, you're right.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was the mid-'50s.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. Because the oldest daughter was born in '57, and I know we moved here in this house, because I had been -- I married the year before then. I married '56.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And then we had purchased this house, and she was born in '57.
MR. MCDANIEL: And she was born in '57.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember that.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you've been in this house ever since then.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, ever since then.
MR. MCDANIEL: So what did you do? Did you continue -- once you moved here, you raised your kids, I guess.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, but see, I had gone -- in the meantime I went back to school, and I worked in Knoxville for a while, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And you eventually went to Knoxville College --
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I went back --
MR. MCDANIEL: --and got your -- and finished Knoxville College.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, got my degree. Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Now did you continue to work? Did you work at --
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I worked until -- well, about 20 years, because I was up in age, because when I married, you know, I worked about almost 20 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you ended up working in the Knox County School System, isn't that correct?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I did. Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. So, and then eventually you retired.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: So just came home. What was, you know, tell me, what was Oak Ridge like in those early days when you were here? You weren't living here, but you were working here. What was it like? What were the people like? What was unique about it?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, when I came here I guess we all brought our language with us, the language that I listen to here, you know, with people, they would say certain things that I hadn't heard, you know. And I guess we said the same thing. I don't know, you know, they would use words about y'all and you'ses and things of that sort, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: I don't know, I can't --
MR. MCDANIEL: You weren't used to that?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, I wasn't accustomed to it. I guess I brought my language too, but I've forgotten from some of that stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Because I remember one time I said, "Well, I live in Oak Ridge and I had a different kind of language to go to school over there, and you know, and then listening to folks you hear a different language, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure, exactly. Exactly. What else was unique about Oak Ridge?
MRS. CHISHOLM: The people from different areas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, you meet people from different places. And you met people from Tennessee, but most of them that I met from North Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MRS. CHISHOLM: And I met a lot of nice people from places that really had nice attitudes and everything, they such a nice people.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I bet you learned a lot, being the young person. You learned a lot about different places, didn't you?
MRS. CHISHOLM: I did. I learned quite a bit about different places.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. I'm sure. I'm sure. What was the racial situation like when you were here? I mean was there conflict? Were there issues? I know it was segregated basically.
MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, I've heard a lot of tales and things about different things, you know, of people that said different things, but at that time I can remember some of the things. There was one fellow was on the job and he was told -- a lot of time I don't know whether it's really the truth, you know, so I try not to repeat stuff unless I --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I understand. But it makes for a good story, though.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I know. Because it was one fellow that was working, and it's not funny, but you know, sometimes the truth is funny. He was saying that he had seven or eight brothers or something like that, and he was -- I forgot whether he was the lightest one or the blackest one or something. That was funny at that time, but it's not anymore, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And the way he told it, you know, the man told us, "You get" -- they had the rest of the day off. And so I don't know why he felt that way about it, how the impression it had on the guy. Now I'm not telling it exactly the way I heard it at that time, because people told stories like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. I understand. I understand. But, I mean did you -- I mean when you -- I'm sure when you worked at K-25 you worked a lot with white people, but did you socialize at all?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, nobody had time to socialize with me, 'cause you come to work, you had to do your work, and then you had to rush -- when it's time to leave you had to rush and run to catch the trailer bus, you know, and you didn't want it to leave you, especially when you live different places, because they had them from everywhere. They had from Johnson City as far down as Crossville and Cookville, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: And Alcoa, Cleveland, Tennessee. I remember Philadelphia down there; buses was from all over the area. And actually when I was filling out that paper I was thinking about when it says that "Is this area, they call it Oak Ridge area or Knoxville area or what?" you know, but --
MR. MCDANIEL: Now when you caught the bus at K-25 did it take you back to Knoxville?
MRS. CHISHOLM: It took me to the bus station, where you were able to, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Here in Oak Ridge?
MRS. CHISHOLM: No, in Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, in Knoxville. Okay. Now how far did you live from the bus station?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, not -- maybe about three blocks or something like that. Not far.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. All right. Do you have any other good stories you want to tell me?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, well, you know, over the years I had a little hobby; I used to read a lot of poetry. I should've gotten some of them out, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And I've done that up until this year for the senior citizen group that they have every year. I wasn't able to go this time; all this happened in October, and they usually have that program in November, and I was preparing myself for the program, you know. I read a lot of poems and poetry and stuff about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. So what's it like -- what's the difference between living in Oak Ridge now and living in Oak Ridge when you first got here? What's similar and what's different?
MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, in this area particular it used to be a lot of children out here, you know, and a lot of them have grown up, like my children, and have moved away or moved out of town, you know. There's not as many children as there used to be in this area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. What else?
MRS. CHISHOLM: And let's see, I don't know it. I know that we used to have -- the garbage people would come twice a week.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Sure.
MRS. CHISHOLM: They don't come that often now.
MR. MCDANIEL: They don't come that often anymore, do they?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Anymore, uh-uh. And I don't know, that's -- I can't --
MR. MCDANIEL: Now have you been involved in other community activities?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, community activity and church, the NAACP and there's another group that I -- they're called Jescia, and I forgot that. My husband used to be the president of the NAACP at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And --
MR. MCDANIEL: What kind of work did that group do?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, I don't know. Well, at that time they wasn't integrated here at the time. I remember a story about the Alexander Hotel, you know, they were trying to integrate that, you know, and one fellow went up there -- now this was a story told to me; I guess it is true, and he didn't stay in the bed. But anyway, they took some pillows and laid them up in the bed, as if somebody was going to be in the bed. Now I don't know if this is true or not. And some people went in there and I guess they thought it was a person and that, and well they -- they be telling, so they shot in the pillow or they hit in the pillow or they did something.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: There wasn't nobody there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: No, and that was at Alexander. The one that you're trying to hold, keep or do something with that hotel.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Have they ever decided what they're going to do with it?
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, ma'am, I think they've decided that they're going to -- a company's going to buy it and turn it into an assisted living facility.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, okay. That's good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Because there are a lot of older people here now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Exactly.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well I know they was trying to integrate that place there a long time ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: So y'all were involved in the integration?
MRS. CHISHOLM: In integration, my husband was. And I remember, too, they had a washateria at Grove Center, and I was pregnant with my second girl, and I used to walk up there, you know, picketing the place, and then the Davis Brother's Cafeteria, I know you've heard of that, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm.
MRS. CHISHOLM: And they picketed that several times; they didn't want people to go in there, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Hmm. Well, my goodness. Well any other good stories? Anything else you want to talk about?
MRS. CHISHOLM: No, I can't -- no, I can't think of anything right now.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you'll think of things when we stop, won't you?
MRS. CHISHOLM: I know it. And the thing is why I was asking you before I left what --
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, anything else you want to say, because here's your chance?
MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, that's -- I should -- ask me why I like to be prepared and I'll --
MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] All right, well good. So I appreciate. If that's all then that's all, and I appreciate you taking time to talk with us today.
MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, you're welcome. I enjoyed it. I didn't know -- this is the first time I've ever had one like this.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. That's fine. That's fine. All right, well thank you so much.
MRS. CHISHOLM: You're welcome.
[End of Interview]
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| Rating | |
| Title | Chisholm, Lavada |
| Description | Oral History of Lavada Chisholm, Interviewed by Keith McDaniel, December 14, 2012 |
| Audio Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Audio/COROH%20-%20CHISHOLM,%20LAVADA.mp3 |
| Video Link | http://www.osti.gov/coroh_video/media/Chisholm_Lavada |
| Transcript Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Chisholm_Lavada/Chisholm_Final.doc |
| Image Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Chisholm_Lavada/CHISHOLM_LAVADA.jpg |
| Collection Name | COROH |
| Interviewee | Chisholm, Lavada |
| Interviewer | McDaniel, Keith |
| Type | video |
| Language | English |
| Subject | Oak Ridge (Tenn.) |
| Date of Original | 2012 |
| Format | flv, doc, jpg, mp3 |
| Length | 26 minutes |
| File Size | 87 MB |
| Source | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Location of Original | Oak Ridge Public Library |
| Rights | Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge, Oak Ridge, TN 37830 Disclaimer: "This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government. Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof, nor any of their employees, makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States Government or any agency thereof." The materials in this collection are in the public domain and may be reproduced without the written permission of either the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History or the Oak Ridge Public Library. However, anyone using the materials assumes all responsibility for claims arising from use of the materials. Materials may not be used to show by implication or otherwise that the City of Oak Ridge, the Oak Ridge Public Library, or the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History endorses any product or project. When materials are to be used commercially or online, the credit line shall read: “Courtesy of the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History and the Oak Ridge Public Library.” |
| Contact Information | For more information or if you are interested in providing an oral history, contact: The Center for Oak Ridge Oral History, Oak Ridge Public Library, 1401 Oak Ridge Turnpike, 865-425-3455. |
| Identifier | CHIL |
| Creator | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Contributors | McNeilly, Kathy; Stooksbury, Susie; McDaniel, Keith; Reed, Jordan |
| Searchable Text | ORAL HISTORY OF LAVADA CHISHOLM Interviewed by Keith McDaniel December 14, 2012 MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is December 14, 2012. And I am at the home of Mrs. Lavada Chisholm here in Oak Ridge. Mrs. Chisholm, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us. Tell me a little bit about where you were born and your family and where you grew up. MRS. CHISHOLM: I was born in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, at Rutherford County. And I grew up in that area. I went to Holloway High School; that's where I graduated from. When I went to elementary school, the school was named Dillard, I think about the street I live on; it was Dillard Grammar School that I went to. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now what year were you born? MRS. CHISHOLM: I was born 1925. MR. MCDANIEL: 1925. MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: And did you have brothers and sisters? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I had one sister, Ruby Harris. She was Bright. And I had one brother, Arthur D. Bright. And he went into the Navy when he was 18 years old. MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did your mom and dad do? MRS. CHISHOLM: My daddy worked on the railroad, that was his job, working on the -- but he went in the World War I. He was, went to World War I. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. And then I think about my brother, he was in World War II. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: And my mother was just a house-maker. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. So you grew up in Murfreesboro, or was it outside of Murfreesboro? MRS. CHISHOLM: It was more or less outside, a little place called Barfield. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: About five miles or less from the city. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: Of course, now they have been cooperating -- they have moved the -- MR. MCDANIEL: The city limits? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, the city limits is what I'm trying to say. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: They have a high school out there and everything at Barfield. It doesn't look like the same place anymore. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so what was it like growing up there? I mean, this was the, you know, '20s and '30s in the South. MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, as far as I can remember it was just -- to me it was just comfortable. They had farms, you know, and they farmed and this is how they raised the vegetables and the chickens. And I remember my mother used to raise a lot of turkeys, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: And we would feed them oatmeal. And only after I grew up I just didn't really like oatmeal anymore. And of course now I eat a lot of oatmeal because it's supposed to be healthy for you. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: Old-fashioned oatmeal. But they raised 30 to 40 turkeys, you know. We'd go and feed them oatmeal because they would buy those big sacks, I think 50 pounds or 100 pounds of oatmeal to feed the turkeys. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now when you went to school there, was it a segregated school? MRS. CHISHOLM: The school that I went to attend, Dillard School, yes, it was segregated school, because we walked about a half a mile to the school. And some people had to go farther than that to the school, at Dillard School. And it is not there any longer, so they have buses that they bus the children to a different school. MR. MCDANIEL: So you graduated from high school. MRS. CHISHOLM: I graduated from the grammar school in eighth grade, and then left the grammar school and went to Holloway High School. MR. MCDANIEL: Holloway High School. MRS. CHISHOLM: In Murfreesboro, the city, and graduated from there. MR. MCDANIEL: And then when you graduated, what did you do? MRS. CHISHOLM: That year my mother passed. And then it's World War II had started. So I knew that we'd have to get jobs or do something. And we found out from the employment office that they had this place in Oak Ridge. If we had known that they were looking for a place to build a plant or something of the sort. We didn't know what kind of plant they was going to build. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: So we went to the employment office and they told us that we need to get our Social Security card, me and my sister. When I say "we," I'm talking about my sister. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: So we went there and got a Social Security card and we came to East Tennessee. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year was that? MRS. CHISHOLM: 1944. I graduated -- my mother passed that year and I had graduated that year, and then as she passed we came up here to look for a job. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was your sister older or younger than you? MRS. CHISHOLM: No, my sister's younger than I. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. All right. So you and your sister came to Oak Ridge. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, my sister and I came. MR. MCDANIEL: In '44. MRS. CHISHOLM: 1944. MR. MCDANIEL: And your dad, he stayed here? MRS. CHISHOLM: My daddy had passed long before then, when I was a small -- MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, had he? MRS. CHISHOLM: Because he went to World War I, and when he came back he was -- they had to -- well, he was gassed, you know, in that war. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: And then he had died in the Memphis Hospital. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Now who took care of you and your sister after your mother died? Or no, you -- she died the year you graduated, didn't she? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, and when she died my grand -- MR. MCDANIEL: So you and your sister decided to come to Oak Ridge. MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, we had no other -- because we had decided we needed some jobs, so we had to go to work. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: So I was 18 and she was 17. And so we came to East Tennessee. MR. MCDANIEL: So tell me about coming to Oak Ridge. Tell me what you saw and what was it like when you first got here. MRS. CHISHOLM: Okay. I'll tell you, we got on the bus and we stopped at Crossville, Tennessee. Now I've told this story in a long time. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: The bus driver told us that we couldn't get off in Cross -- if there's anything we wanted, he would get it for us. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: Because it was a segregated town; they didn't allow any black people there. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: So we stayed on the bus, and it was at night when we came, so we didn't want anything. So Crossville's not too far. I didn't realize then how close it was to Knoxville. But we stayed on the bus and came to Knoxville and we got here sometime early that morning. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? So what did you do? When you got to Knoxville did you directly get on a bus and come to Oak Ridge? MRS. CHISHOLM: No. We stayed in Knoxville. We tried to find someplace to stay. So we found a place they called Home for the Girls, and we stayed there until we went to the employment office and applied for work in Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Now how long did that take, for you to get a job? MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, well they was hiring people right off. All you had to do is just fill out papers and everything. MR. MCDANIEL: And come on. MRS. CHISHOLM: And come on and ride the bus. So we rode the bus until I decided that I'd move out here. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. So after I moved out here I never did move back to Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So where did you two get jobs? And what did you do? MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, in Oak Ridge, we got jobs at K-25. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: That's where we -- and in the afternoon they had those trailer buses. I call them trailer because the cabin part was hooked onto the back. And in the afternoon, when the whistle blew, we had to run to catch the bus. If we didn't we would miss it. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: And so we did that, and that was a little -- that was heavy and it was a little bit hard on me, so I had to stop. And I came over in this area and got a job, and over here they had trailers. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: So I came over in this area and got a job working here. And all in this area they had like A, B, C and all over there. So the lady that was over there, she asked me if I would check the people in during the morning, you know, and I did that, and worked in the trailers until I decided that I wanted to go back to school and do hair. MR. MCDANIEL: Now what did you do at K-25? What was your job? MRS. CHISHOLM: My job was sweeping and cleaning up whatever that was on the floor. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: And I think about it a lot of times, I know it was kind of hot stuff, you know, I believe it was; that's just my opinion. I don't know what it was, because a lot of people was having problems with it at that time. I didn't know what it was that we was cleaning up, but it was the dust from ever what they were doing. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: And was this like in the big K-25 U? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, in the big building -- was the huge building that we had to sweep in that dust on. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. Right. Right. So you stayed there for a little while and then you decided to come over here. MRS. CHISHOLM: I stayed there -- yeah, to get a -- at least get another job, because they was hiring people, you know. So after then I came over here. MR. MCDANIEL: Came over here. When you mean here, where do you mean? MRS. CHISHOLM: I came from K-25 to -- MR. MCDANIEL: To Y-12. MRS. CHISHOLM: No, to this area. This was called Roman Anderson, I think, then. MR. MCDANIEL: It was called what? MRS. CHISHOLM: Roman Anderson. And it was a trailer camp -- MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, Roane-Anderson. MRS. CHISHOLM: -they put people. It was a trailer camp. We came over here and worked and cleaned. Because my sister went to Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: We lived in Knoxville. She got a job in Knoxville. She didn't come over. So I worked here a while until I decided to go back and take cosmetology. MR. MCDANIEL: Now so what year did you decide to go take cosmetology? MRS. CHISHOLM: It was -- well, that was in '44. It may have been about '46 and '47. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So after the war was over. After World War II ended you went -- you decided to do that? MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, I don't really think that the war was over at that time, when I decided to take cosmetology. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really? Well, the war ended in the fall of '45. MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, it did? Well, okay then. Well, it must've been during that time. I guess so. MR. MCDANIEL: You had probably decided -- MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, during that time. Because I remember my brother came back on the bus and they was celebrating in Knoxville. And I didn't know he was coming back. You know, he was in the Navy. And we was on the street, coming down to the bus station to meet somebody. I don't know what it was. But anyway, and I saw him on the street, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: That was really surprising. So we took him on to where we were staying, and the lady -- it was this girls' home, and she let him stay there that-- over that night. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. Until he decided to, you know, to find someplace. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. Now so you were single when you were -- those early years. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I was single then. Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like in Oak Ridge, being a single young woman? MRS. CHISHOLM: I don't know. We didn't live in Oak Ridge at that time. MR. MCDANIEL: That's true. You worked in Oak Ridge. MRS. CHISHOLM: I worked in Oak Ridge, but I lived in Knoxville at that time. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you find -- well, how was it in Knoxville? MRS. CHISHOLM: It was okay in Knoxville, you know, until after I finished beauty culture, and then I came out here and worked, you know, I worked at the hub, back and forth, and then I decided I'd move to Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So you went to -- so you decided to go to beauty school in Knoxville. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes. Yeah, Lady Alice Beauty College. MR. MCDANIEL: And what is it called? What was it called? MRS. CHISHOLM: Lady Alice Beauty College. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really? Okay. Where was that? MRS. CHISHOLM: It was on -- it was in not Mechanicsville -- Lost -- yeah, Mechanicsville. MR. MCDANIEL: Mechanicsville, okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, on -- I can't even think of that street now. The main street out there, down from Knoxville College. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right, exactly. So you went to beauty college and then you decided to come back to Oak Ridge and work here in the beauty shop. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, beauty shop. But I was living in Knoxville; I went back and forth. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: Me and a lady by the name of Evelyn Dunwoody, she was much older than I. She said she was coming to Oak Ridge; I said, "I want to go with you too." So we came out here and worked in the beauty shop. MR. MCDANIEL: Now where -- so tell me about the beauty shop. Where was it located? MRS. CHISHOLM: It was a double hut that was put together for a beauty shop. They said that they had a barber shop on one side and beauty shop on the other, and it's in that area down there, you know, where I was telling you. MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me again. MRS. CHISHOLM: Across the street from -- what is that? Across the street from -- it's down from McDonald's, where McDonald's, in that area. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. It was down -- it's down where they're building the new Panera and Aubrey's restaurants. [Note: South Illinois Ave, just after coming into the city.] MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. It's right there. MR. MCDANIEL: And across from the NOAH weather center there. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: Now was that just a black beauty shop? I mean just for blacks? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mostly. Yeah, because in that area it was a black hutment down there they had. And then up across there, where Wal-Mart is [South Illinois Avenue], they had a section of houses that they've had for family, and then they had a place where family live -- hutment that family lived in too in that area. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. But that was -- at that time was really the black section of Oak Ridge, wasn't it? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, that's right. It was. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: Now the hutments were, I understand they were fenced in, weren't they? MRS. CHISHOLM: Some of the -- yeah, especially the men. MR. MCDANIEL: The women. MRS. CHISHOLM: The women was fenced in, yes. Mm-hmm. The women was fenced in. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right, right, right. So what was it like working? And how long did you work there? You worked there -- MRS. CHISHOLM: Now as far as staying there, I didn't stay there that time. As I was saying, I went back and forth to Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: I worked there until they just had built these houses over here, and after they built these houses over here then I came to this area. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. But you worked there for a few years, right? MRS. CHISHOLM: A long -- yes, as long as I could in that -- yes. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: What was that like, working in the beauty shop? MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, it was just working there. I had a lot of clientele, people who came to get their hair fixed, and it was convenient for them, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: They had all the equipment and then they had a barber shop on one side and the beauty shop on the other. MR. MCDANIEL: Now was that run by the government or was it privately-owned? Do you remember? MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, it probably was run by -- there was two fellows that was that was over that area and the cafeteria, they called Robert -- Bob Watkin and Robert -- I can't even think of his name, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: But they kind of ran things? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, in that area. MR. MCDANIEL: In that area, right. MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. They did. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: And we was responsible to them. I don't know to what, you know -- MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. So when they built this community over here you left the beauty shop and you went back to Knoxville, is that correct? MRS. CHISHOLM: No. Well, when you said "went back," I already lived in Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: You already lived there. MRS. CHISHOLM: And I would drive -- well, I rode the bus back and forth at that time. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: And then they built this place over here. MR. MCDANIEL: And you decided to move here? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Well, yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MRS. CHISHOLM: Because they had -- up here where they have this building up there now -- what do they have up there now? That restaurant. They had a store up there and two or three other little things. They had -- and then they had a beauty shop there too, and I worked there too. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. After a while. And that was -- time had passed, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. So when did you move -- when did you move here? MRS. CHISHOLM: You mean here, when you're talking -- MR. MCDANIEL: When did you move to Oak Ridge to stay? MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, when I moved here to stay. Well, I'll tell you what, after they closed that beauty shop over there, I had a beauty shop in the dorm up there for a while. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And then something -- student relations or something, and I had to move from there. And then after then I had gotten married and then they would start selling these houses, but that was two or three years between. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: And we bought this house when they started selling the houses. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And then I don't know when that was. MR. MCDANIEL: Mid-'50s probably. MRS. CHISHOLM: It had to be in -- yeah, you're right. MR. MCDANIEL: It was the mid-'50s. MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. Because the oldest daughter was born in '57, and I know we moved here in this house, because I had been -- I married the year before then. I married '56. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: And then we had purchased this house, and she was born in '57. MR. MCDANIEL: And she was born in '57. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember that. MR. MCDANIEL: So you've been in this house ever since then. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, ever since then. MR. MCDANIEL: So what did you do? Did you continue -- once you moved here, you raised your kids, I guess. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, but see, I had gone -- in the meantime I went back to school, and I worked in Knoxville for a while, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And you eventually went to Knoxville College -- MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I went back -- MR. MCDANIEL: --and got your -- and finished Knoxville College. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, got my degree. Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Now did you continue to work? Did you work at -- MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I worked until -- well, about 20 years, because I was up in age, because when I married, you know, I worked about almost 20 years. MR. MCDANIEL: And you ended up working in the Knox County School System, isn't that correct? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes, I did. Mm-hmm. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. So, and then eventually you retired. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: So just came home. What was, you know, tell me, what was Oak Ridge like in those early days when you were here? You weren't living here, but you were working here. What was it like? What were the people like? What was unique about it? MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, when I came here I guess we all brought our language with us, the language that I listen to here, you know, with people, they would say certain things that I hadn't heard, you know. And I guess we said the same thing. I don't know, you know, they would use words about y'all and you'ses and things of that sort, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: I don't know, I can't -- MR. MCDANIEL: You weren't used to that? MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, I wasn't accustomed to it. I guess I brought my language too, but I've forgotten from some of that stuff. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Exactly. MRS. CHISHOLM: Because I remember one time I said, "Well, I live in Oak Ridge and I had a different kind of language to go to school over there, and you know, and then listening to folks you hear a different language, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure, exactly. Exactly. What else was unique about Oak Ridge? MRS. CHISHOLM: The people from different areas. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, you meet people from different places. And you met people from Tennessee, but most of them that I met from North Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Really? MRS. CHISHOLM: And I met a lot of nice people from places that really had nice attitudes and everything, they such a nice people. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I bet you learned a lot, being the young person. You learned a lot about different places, didn't you? MRS. CHISHOLM: I did. I learned quite a bit about different places. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. I'm sure. I'm sure. What was the racial situation like when you were here? I mean was there conflict? Were there issues? I know it was segregated basically. MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, I've heard a lot of tales and things about different things, you know, of people that said different things, but at that time I can remember some of the things. There was one fellow was on the job and he was told -- a lot of time I don't know whether it's really the truth, you know, so I try not to repeat stuff unless I -- MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I understand. But it makes for a good story, though. MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, I know. Because it was one fellow that was working, and it's not funny, but you know, sometimes the truth is funny. He was saying that he had seven or eight brothers or something like that, and he was -- I forgot whether he was the lightest one or the blackest one or something. That was funny at that time, but it's not anymore, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: And the way he told it, you know, the man told us, "You get" -- they had the rest of the day off. And so I don't know why he felt that way about it, how the impression it had on the guy. Now I'm not telling it exactly the way I heard it at that time, because people told stories like that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. I understand. I understand. But, I mean did you -- I mean when you -- I'm sure when you worked at K-25 you worked a lot with white people, but did you socialize at all? MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, nobody had time to socialize with me, 'cause you come to work, you had to do your work, and then you had to rush -- when it's time to leave you had to rush and run to catch the trailer bus, you know, and you didn't want it to leave you, especially when you live different places, because they had them from everywhere. They had from Johnson City as far down as Crossville and Cookville, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: And Alcoa, Cleveland, Tennessee. I remember Philadelphia down there; buses was from all over the area. And actually when I was filling out that paper I was thinking about when it says that "Is this area, they call it Oak Ridge area or Knoxville area or what?" you know, but -- MR. MCDANIEL: Now when you caught the bus at K-25 did it take you back to Knoxville? MRS. CHISHOLM: It took me to the bus station, where you were able to, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Here in Oak Ridge? MRS. CHISHOLM: No, in Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, in Knoxville. Okay. Now how far did you live from the bus station? MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, not -- maybe about three blocks or something like that. Not far. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. All right. Do you have any other good stories you want to tell me? MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, well, you know, over the years I had a little hobby; I used to read a lot of poetry. I should've gotten some of them out, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And I've done that up until this year for the senior citizen group that they have every year. I wasn't able to go this time; all this happened in October, and they usually have that program in November, and I was preparing myself for the program, you know. I read a lot of poems and poetry and stuff about that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Sure. Sure. So what's it like -- what's the difference between living in Oak Ridge now and living in Oak Ridge when you first got here? What's similar and what's different? MRS. CHISHOLM: You know, in this area particular it used to be a lot of children out here, you know, and a lot of them have grown up, like my children, and have moved away or moved out of town, you know. There's not as many children as there used to be in this area. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. What else? MRS. CHISHOLM: And let's see, I don't know it. I know that we used to have -- the garbage people would come twice a week. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. Sure. MRS. CHISHOLM: They don't come that often now. MR. MCDANIEL: They don't come that often anymore, do they? MRS. CHISHOLM: Anymore, uh-uh. And I don't know, that's -- I can't -- MR. MCDANIEL: Now have you been involved in other community activities? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, community activity and church, the NAACP and there's another group that I -- they're called Jescia, and I forgot that. My husband used to be the president of the NAACP at that time. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Mm-hmm. And -- MR. MCDANIEL: What kind of work did that group do? MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, I don't know. Well, at that time they wasn't integrated here at the time. I remember a story about the Alexander Hotel, you know, they were trying to integrate that, you know, and one fellow went up there -- now this was a story told to me; I guess it is true, and he didn't stay in the bed. But anyway, they took some pillows and laid them up in the bed, as if somebody was going to be in the bed. Now I don't know if this is true or not. And some people went in there and I guess they thought it was a person and that, and well they -- they be telling, so they shot in the pillow or they hit in the pillow or they did something. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: There wasn't nobody there. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: No, and that was at Alexander. The one that you're trying to hold, keep or do something with that hotel. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MRS. CHISHOLM: Have they ever decided what they're going to do with it? MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, ma'am, I think they've decided that they're going to -- a company's going to buy it and turn it into an assisted living facility. MRS. CHISHOLM: Oh, okay. That's good. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. MRS. CHISHOLM: Because there are a lot of older people here now. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. Exactly. MRS. CHISHOLM: Well I know they was trying to integrate that place there a long time ago. MR. MCDANIEL: So y'all were involved in the integration? MRS. CHISHOLM: In integration, my husband was. And I remember, too, they had a washateria at Grove Center, and I was pregnant with my second girl, and I used to walk up there, you know, picketing the place, and then the Davis Brother's Cafeteria, I know you've heard of that, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. MRS. CHISHOLM: And they picketed that several times; they didn't want people to go in there, you know. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Hmm. Well, my goodness. Well any other good stories? Anything else you want to talk about? MRS. CHISHOLM: No, I can't -- no, I can't think of anything right now. MR. MCDANIEL: So you'll think of things when we stop, won't you? MRS. CHISHOLM: I know it. And the thing is why I was asking you before I left what -- MR. MCDANIEL: Well, anything else you want to say, because here's your chance? MRS. CHISHOLM: Yeah, that's -- I should -- ask me why I like to be prepared and I'll -- MR. MCDANIEL: [Laughs] All right, well good. So I appreciate. If that's all then that's all, and I appreciate you taking time to talk with us today. MRS. CHISHOLM: Well, you're welcome. I enjoyed it. I didn't know -- this is the first time I've ever had one like this. MR. MCDANIEL: Mm-hmm. That's fine. That's fine. All right, well thank you so much. MRS. CHISHOLM: You're welcome. [End of Interview] |
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