Pierce, Gerald

              
ORAL HISTORY OF GERALD PIERCE
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
December 20, 2012
 
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is December 20, 2012, and I am at the home of Gerald Pierce, here in Oak Ridge, and, Mr. Pierce, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. PIERCE: I hope I can give you some information.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, good.  Let's take a little bit -- I always like to know about where a person came from, so tell me a little bit about where you were born and raised, and something about your family.
MR. PIERCE: I was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, but within about two years, I don't remember anything about living there, my family moved to a small town in Louisiana called Kentwood.  It's about 80 miles from Baton Rouge, and that's where I grew up.  I went to elementary and high school there, and was active in the band.  I enjoyed playing in the band.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did you play?
MR. PIERCE: I started out playing the clarinet, but then it was a very small band and they needed some bass instruments, so I switched over to a tuba, or a sousaphone, the big one, and carried it for about three years, and enjoyed that very much, and Kentwood is just a small town.  The main industry, I guess you'd call it, would be dairy farming.  It was at the time, and there were a lot of dairy farms around the town, but we lived in town.  My dad was an automobile dealer for Chrysler for a while and, later, he sold that business and went into the insurance business.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year did you graduate high school?
MR. PIERCE: 1952.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1952.
MR. PIERCE: Mm-hmm.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so I guess you really don't remember the Depression very much.  You were a little young for that, weren't you?
MR. PIERCE: Not much.  I was born in '34, so no, I don't remember much about the Depression --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right.
MR. PIERCE: -- but we made it through, I guess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: My dad, along with his brother, opened the automobile agency and garage.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: It was very small.  It had a showroom that maybe could hold two cars --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and then, when the war came on, of course, there were no cars --
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. PIERCE: -- for sale, so they just --
MR. MCDANIEL: That's when they went into the insurance business, huh?
MR. PIERCE: -- well, no.  Later than that, after I graduated, but just repairing cars and --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. PIERCE: -- getting parts, I guess, was what kept the business going at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.  So, you graduated high school in '52.
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did you do then?  Did you go to college?
MR. PIERCE: I went to college, to Louisiana State University, and I took me a few courses to decide what I wanted to major on, and so I started out in engineering but then switched to chemistry --
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: -- and that's what my degree is in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. PIERCE: So, in switching around and moving around, I lost a few credits, so I graduated in mid-term of 1957.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's just four and a half years.  You wouldn't believe how long it took me to get out of college.  It took me forever.  So, you graduated in mid-term '57 –
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- with a bachelor's in chemistry.
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you get a job?
MR. PIERCE: Yes, I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: How did you find a job?
MR. PIERCE: A recruiter from Union Carbide in Oak Ridge came to the LSU campus and interviewed me, and I told him I would like to apply and he said, "Well, it will take three months to get your clearance," and I was about ready to graduate, just a month or two before I was due to graduate, so I put in my application and he told me about the clearance time, and I decided to just stay in Kentwood until I heard from them.  The only problem was that, while I was staying waiting at home and living there, I got a notice from my draft board that I needed to report for a physical exam.  This was in early May, I guess.  I went and had my physical and took whatever tests they gave you for the draft --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and had all the recruiters coming by to talk to me, and was just waiting there, and they hadn't called me up yet, and one day I got a call from one of the people at ORNL and said, "Your clearance has come through and we're ready for you to report to work," and I said, "Well, you're too late.  I've already had my exam and I expect I'll be called up in about two or three weeks," --
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. PIERCE: -- and this fellow said, "Well, how soon can you get here?" and I told him, "I can get up there in two or three days."  He said, "Well, come on and let's see what we can do."  So, I packed up fairly quickly and came up here, and got here and went out to the ORNL, and went through a process and they hired me that day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: Whatever they had to do with the draft board, they did it --
MR. MCDANIEL: They did it, huh?
MR. PIERCE: -- because I didn't hear anything from them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Have you been waiting since then, wondering if they'll remember you?
MR. PIERCE: Yeah, they probably remember my name.  I don't know.  But I had to go back and he had to renew that every year --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. PIERCE: -- for several years, and then finally, one time I went back, and he said, "Well," he said, "Let's just not do that this time."  He said, "You're," -- I forget how old I was, 30-something -- "and you have two children," or three children, and he says, "They're not drafting men your age with a family anymore, so --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure --
MR. PIERCE: -- we'll just let it go," and --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- just let it go.
MR. PIERCE: -- that's how I came to Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you came here in '57 --
MR. PIERCE: Yes, in May.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- in May of '57.  I guess you were single at the time.
MR. PIERCE: I was single, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, and so you came here in '57.  What was it like when you first came to Oak Ridge?  What were your impressions?
MR. PIERCE: Well, it was a very spread out city, hills.  Being from Louisiana, I wasn't used to very many hills, very high hills.  It seemed to be a well-planned town, I thought, except I had to get used to the fact that it didn't look like a town that I was familiar with.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: They had no old buildings or no downtown area.
MR. MCDANIEL: No town square.
MR. PIERCE: No.  They had an area they called Downtown, but it was a shopping center to me --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and the houses, they told me about the houses and how they were made, and so the Personnel Department out at X-10 got me a room in Canton Hall, one of the men's dormitories at the time, and that's where I lived for several months --
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. PIERCE: -- and then moved out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where was Canton?  Was it near the hospital?
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: It was right across Tennessee from the tennis courts --
MR. MCDANIEL: That's right, that's right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and across the street from where the Children's Clinic is --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. PIERCE: There were two men's dormitories left that I knew of, Canton and the one next to it, I think it was Cambridge, but there were only two left that I knew of.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly, exactly.  So, you moved into Canton Hall --
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- lived there for a few months.
MR. PIERCE: I was single, a very small room.
MR. MCDANIEL: A very small room.  It was like being in a dorm, wasn't it?
MR. PIERCE: It was almost like being back in college, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, I imagine it would be sort of like being in college, all men's dorm and young people, mostly, I would imagine.
MR. PIERCE: Mostly young, and the showers and the bathrooms --
MR. MCDANIEL: They were all community.
MR. PIERCE: -- down the hall, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right.  So, what did you do?  What was your job?
MR. PIERCE: I was in the Analytical Chemistry Department.  We did chemical analyses.  I started out in a general analysis laboratory, and later moved to what they called the Transuranium Analysis Laboratory --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. PIERCE: -- where we dealt with samples that had plutonium and neptunium and americium, and a few of those elements that I had never heard of --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- even in taking a course in chemistry.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure.  I'm sure.
MR. PIERCE: It was all new work to me.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'll bet you learned a lot --
MR. PIERCE: I learned --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- down there.
MR. PIERCE: -- a great deal, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so you stayed in that job for a while.  Let's talk about your professional life a little bit, and we'll come back --
MR. PIERCE: All right.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and talk about your personal life.
MR. PIERCE: We did analysis for the research groups that were working with those transuranic elements.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: That was the type of work we did.  Most of it was radiochemical type counting measurements rather than what you would consider standard chemical type measurements.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was your boss?
MR. PIERCE: My boss in that lab was a fellow named John Cooper.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: He lived in Knoxville, and I think he's still alive.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. PIERCE: But I was in that group eight years, and then transferred to the General Chemistry lab after that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: A lot of the work we did, I think, if I remember correctly, was connected with a reactor project they called the Molten Salt Reactor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: I didn't understand or know much about reactors at the time, so that's all I know about it, but that project I think eventually they terminated that project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, like most of the projects, you know --
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- it goes for a while and then gets terminated.  So, you went back to the General Chemistry Division.
MR. PIERCE: Yes, and general analysis.  Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right.  Now, how long were you there?
MR. PIERCE: About two or three years, while I was still at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, and that was analysis also on general type projects that the development divisions were working on --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and that was the more standard chemical type analysis that I was used to.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, what did you do after that?  Where did you go?
MR. PIERCE: They needed to transfer some of their people from some of the projects at X-10 maybe were not going to be renewed --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- so they asked me if I would consider going to Y-12, to the plant lab at Y-12.  So, I went, I think, in 1968, I believe, to Y-12.
[Side Conversation]
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went to Y-12.  How long were you at Y-12?
MR. PIERCE: I was there five years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Five years?
MR. PIERCE: I was in what they called the Special Metals Laboratory.  It was a defense-related --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- project, and analyzing the samples for that particular project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: At the time, the Cold War was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Raging.
MR. PIERCE: -- raging, and it was a pretty classified project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: But, again, I was in a group there that did general type analysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, and you were there for five years --
MR. PIERCE: Five years.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and then did they send you to K-25?
MR. PIERCE: They did.  They asked me if I would consider another move.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: They always told me, "You have a choice," but I was always a little hesitant to exercise too much of a choice --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.  I understand.
MR. PIERCE: -- and I didn't see any problems personally to making transitions like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: So, I went to --
MR. MCDANIEL: It's not like you were moving to another city or anything --
MR. PIERCE: -- that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- like that.  It was just across town.
MR. PIERCE: On a Friday afternoon, I would hand them my X-10 badge, and Monday morning I would show up at the Y-12 portal, and they would have a badge there waiting for me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: So, same company and all of that.  So, I went to K-25 and, again, I was in the laboratory division, and I was in the lab that did sampling of the uranium hexafluoride and then we would send the samples to the other labs for analysis.  I wasn't involved in the analysis in this particular --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- situation.  It was, again, a very different experience for me.  I was coming into this area, which was a fairly, I guess, specialized area dealing with uranium hexafluoride, and I was working with people that had been involved with UF6 for 30 years, since --
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. PIERCE: -- the plant was started up, I guess, and they had 30 years of experience handling this stuff, and I had to come up to speed as quickly as I could.  I know I never learned all I needed to know probably --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- about it, but it was a very interesting time, because I got to see and observe how the uranium was separated, what the equipment looked like --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and how it was done.  I got to see the barrier manufacturing plant and see how it was made --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and to find out what was involved in it, because we had to sample all of the materials that went into the barrier --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- manufacture, and then had to send those out to the labs for analysis, and all of this.
MR. MCDANIEL: You got to see behind the mask, didn't you?
MR. PIERCE: I did, and it was information.  Not that I could have ever used it anywhere else --
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, sure, but --
MR. PIERCE: -- because very few other places could do it, but I did get to see how it was done and what was involved in it.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- there weren't very many people who had that opportunity, were there?
MR. PIERCE: That's true, and I was glad to have --
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- the opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure.  Speaking of that, I would imagine working, especially during the Manhattan Project years, working on something that you have one job and that's your job, and you don't know how it works into the big picture.
MR. PIERCE: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I would imagine that would be frustrating, you know?  People did it, and they did it willingly, but even after the Manhattan Project, during the Cold War, a lot of that was still going on --
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- because things were classified.
MR. PIERCE: Yes, they were, and the barrier process, for instance, yes, still --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, it's still --
MR. PIERCE: -- I imagine it is, what --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- highly classified.
MR. PIERCE: -- it was made of and how it was made, because they did not want that technology to go anywhere else.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. PIERCE: So, it was a very interesting time.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, how long did you work there, at K-25?
MR. PIERCE: I worked there ten years --
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: -- and, during that time, of course K-25 was not doing any high enrichment during the times I was there.  I guess 5 or 6 percent was the top of their cascade then.  I don't remember.  But it was all going for reactor --
MR. MCDANIEL: For reactor --
MR. PIERCE: -- fuels --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and our group was also responsible for the UF6 isotopic standards that they used in the measurement of the 235 enrichment --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- I see.
MR. PIERCE: So, our group would prepare standards using known standards, and then mix them to prepare the standards that the measurement group, the mass spectrometers needed to measure and to compare with the unknowns.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see.
MR. PIERCE: So, that was also one of the responsibilities of the group I was in --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and it was very interesting.  We did have some very small quantities of highly enriched uranium, which we had to keep in a locked vault --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- but just before I left, they wanted us to transfer it to the facility at Y-12 because they were getting a little nervous.  Even the small quantity that we had --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- they didn't like it --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- to be in a zone, although I thought it was in a secure place.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: But they felt like it needed to be a little more secure, so we were getting ready to move all that high-enrichment out to --
MR. MCDANIEL: To Y-12?
MR. PIERCE: -- Y-12.  We would make the samples, and we seldom had to use the high-enriched material because we had a standard that was a lot lower than 90-plus percent enrichment, so we could use that since we weren't measuring anything above 5 percent enrichment.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: So, that wasn't too much trouble to get it out.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you worked there for ten years --
MR. PIERCE: Ten years.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and then did you retire, or did you move someplace else?
MR. PIERCE: I went back to Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: You went back to Y-12.
MR. PIERCE: Our group also was responsible for receiving the samples from the toll enrichment facility that supplied the ten-ton cylinders of UF-6 --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure --
MR. PIERCE: -- for the processing, and --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and just so people would know, that's how it came to Oak Ridge, is it was --
MR. PIERCE: -- it was as UF-6.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- as UF-6.  It was already prepared as --
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- UF-6, and then it was separated and enriched, once it got here --
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- to the certain degree of enrichment --
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- that was required.  The UF-6, did it come from all over, because I know in the toll enrichment program, you were enriching for lots of folks.
MR. PIERCE: They were enriching for a lot of companies, yes, and I can think of two or three or four companies that I can remember that were actually supplying the natural UF-6.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. PIERCE: Kerr-McGee had one somewhere in Oklahoma.  There was a chemical company somewhere in Illinois just across the river from Paducah, somewhere in that area, that they were doing the conversion to UF-6.  We got some from British Nuclear Fuels.  I don't know why they sent it over here.  Well, I don't know if they had an enrichment in England, and it seemed like there was one more but I don't remember.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  How did that come in, on a train?
MR. PIERCE: Train cars, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: You say it was ten tons?
MR. PIERCE: Ten, 14-ton, I believe was the --
MR. MCDANIEL: Containers?
MR. PIERCE: -- yes, sir.
MR. MCDANIEL: How big would that be, or can you tell me?
MR. PIERCE: As big as half the size of this room maybe.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. PIERCE: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. PIERCE: They had to pick them up with what they called a straddle buggy.  I think they also use them in big lumber yards, where the cab is way up off the ground and the wheels, and it has a big support group, and it just rolls right over the drum --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah, sure --
MR. PIERCE: -- the container, and lifts it up --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and then lifts it up, right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and that's the way they would feed it into the cascade.  So, our group would get the work order from DOE.  All those work orders came through DOE from the customer, and they would tell DOE how many tons of UF-6 they wanted and what enrichment they wanted, and what reactor it was going to, and we had to get those work orders in order to know what analysis to request from the Lab --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- because depending on where it came from and which reactor or which company was buying the UF-6, would depend on the analysis they wanted, so we needed to know that to request the analysis.  So, around 1982 or 1983, I guess, or the '80s, maybe, I began looking at the work orders, and they would come through and they'd say, "Work order number so-and-so is cancelled entirely," or, "Work order number so-and-so is amended to read 10 tons of UF-6 rather than 50 tons of UF-6."  This was during the time when nuclear energy was facing a crisis --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: -- and I thought, "This crisis on nuclear power is beginning to affect the output of this plant," and I thought, "If DOE decides to shut down a diffusion plant, which one will they shut down?"
MR. MCDANIEL: The oldest one, I would imagine.
MR. PIERCE: I thought, "They're not gonna shut down Portsmouth" --
MR. MCDANIEL: Nope.
MR. PIERCE: -- because they were still, at the time, producing highly-enriched uranium, "So they won't shut that one down, and they probably wouldn't shut down Paducah because it's newer.  Oak Ridge is the oldest one."  I thought, "I bet they would shut Oak Ridge down."  So, I had a few people I knew back at Y-12, and I didn't ask anybody specifically, I just let it be known if there was an opening over at Y-12, that I would consider coming back --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure --
MR. PIERCE: -- and, sure enough, one came along.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and not too much later, they shut it down, didn't they?
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir.  I think I went back to Y-12, I believe, in '83 --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right --
MR. PIERCE: -- and, yes, they shut --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- '85 is when they --
MR. PIERCE: -- is when they shut K-25.  I couldn't remember.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: Okay.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's when it was, '85.  I interviewed a fellow who -- I can't remember.  Anyway, he opened the valve the first time, and he shut it the last time, whatever valve it was.  He's got the handle --
MR. PIERCE: Got the handle, wow.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- or something, mounted.  They mounted it and gave it to him --
MR. PIERCE: Wow, that is something.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- as a parting gift.  So, you went back to Y-12, and how long did you work there before you retired?
MR. PIERCE: Eleven years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Eleven more years?
MR. PIERCE: Eleven more years.  I went back to the Y-12 lab, the same building I had been in before.  I went back as the supervisor of the environmental analysis laboratory, and that's when I began to find out about EPA, and I began to realize how much authority Congress had actually given that organization --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and people were really trying to bring the plant into compliance.
MR. MCDANIEL: This was in the mid '80s, when all that stuff started happening.
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir, it was, all that stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: We had new DOE leadership in Oak Ridge --
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and you had all kinds of environmental issues that were starting to bubble up, weren't they?
MR. PIERCE: They were coming to the top, for sure, and it was a pretty high-stress job --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- during the environmental analysis, but they were talking about that EPA and the state of Tennessee was even considering shutting the Y-12 plant down, and I thought, "That's crazy.  They can't do that.  There's no way that will happen."  But as I stayed there a few weeks in, I began to realize that Y-12 management was taking that possibility seriously, and the DOE Oak Ridge office was taking that possibility seriously, so I began to pay attention --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure --
MR. PIERCE: -- and of course I wasn't --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- and I've interviewed both of them, and they both said the same thing, it was a serious issue.
MR. PIERCE: -- it was serious.  They were even talking jail terms, and I thought, "That's not possible.  They can't do that."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: But I found out I guess maybe it could happen.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: So, I didn't have to deal with the compliance or the taking the samples, or anything like that, we were just in the analysis, but we had a lot of samples --
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet you had --
MR. PIERCE: -- to analyze.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- a lot of work to do, didn't you?
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir.  If it went out of that plant -- air, water, sewage, drainage -- anything that left that plant --
MR. MCDANIEL: It had to be sampled.
MR. PIERCE: -- it had to be sampled.
MR. MCDANIEL: How many people did you have working for you at the time?
MR. PIERCE: At the time, about ten.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. PIERCE: Of course, it grew rather quickly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: But the main concern, one of our main measurements, was measuring the mercury in Poplar Creek, and that was one they were concerned about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: So, my dealing --
MR. MCDANIEL: That eventually, I mean that became a community-wide issue --
MR. PIERCE: Yes, it did.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- you know, it wasn't just a plant EPA issue, was it?
MR. PIERCE: Right.  There were samples all along Poplar Creek where it runs through Oak Ridge, soil samples and water samples all along there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: It was a big project, but there were other problems, too, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, and I guess one of the issues with Poplar Creek was that it had been dredged for fill dirt, hadn't it?
MR. PIERCE: Yes, and all that had been stirred up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: They had to move a lot of soil, I think, to get it all, and I assume it's mostly done, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: But it was sort of an interesting job.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet that was stressful, though, wasn't it?
MR. PIERCE: It was a little stressful, and of course my dealings with the EPA people involved their quality assurance division that wanted to be sure the analysis could be supported and verified, so we had to go with their procedures and their regulations as to --
MR. MCDANIEL: How to do things.
MR. PIERCE: -- how to do things, and how your technicians needed to be trained, and providing the history of their training.
MR. MCDANIEL: I imagine that was a lot of bureaucracy, wasn't it?
MR. PIERCE: Yes, it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Probably at the time, you felt unnecessary bureaucracy.
MR. PIERCE: How do you know this technician is qualified to do this analysis --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- and can you show me control results of what he has done," or she has done, and things like that.  So, yes, I once asked one of the people that interviewed me when I was going to come back, after I got back, I said -- there must have been 20 or 30 chemists in the Y-12 lab at the time.  I said, "Did nobody want this job?" and he said, "Nobody wanted that job," -- 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, my.
MR. PIERCE: -- because most of the time --
MR. MCDANIEL: "Now you tell me."
MR. PIERCE: -- they try to do that -- yeah.  They try to do the field positions from within the organization, if they can, but I guess --
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess they saw the writing on the wall, probably.
MR. PIERCE: -- I think they did, and I didn't know that much about EPA.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, yeah.
MR. PIERCE: But it was interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, what year did you retire, and was that your last job?
MR. PIERCE: That was my last job --
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay --
MR. PIERCE: -- '94.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- '94 --
MR. PIERCE: -- in 1994, 37 years --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- 37 years.
MR. PIERCE: -- and the reason I left was I was 60 years old, and I had intended to work until I was 65, but along came one of these so-called offers you can't refuse --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course.
MR. PIERCE: -- to take a little earlier retirement.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: They were needing to --
MR. MCDANIEL: They were needing to thin the herd a little bit, weren't they?
MR. PIERCE: -- thin the herd, yes, so that was it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, my goodness.  You go home and not have to worry about that anymore, and still have your pension, and why not, right?
MR. PIERCE: That's right.  I have not regretted it --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. PIERCE: -- taking early retirement.  It was a strange feeling when I handed them that badge --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- for the last time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.  Well, let's go back and talk a little bit about your personal life and your community activities, and family and things such as that.  So, you moved into Canton Hall and you lived there for a few months, then where did you move to?
MR. PIERCE: Hunter Circle --
MR. MCDANIEL: Hunter Circle.  Okay, that's right, that's right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and apartment on Hunter Circle.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.  Now, had you met your wife yet?  Were you married or --
MR. PIERCE: No, not married --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- okay, okay.
MR. PIERCE: -- but yes, I had met her, I think, by then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. PIERCE: She came in September.  I'm trying to think when I moved compared with when we met.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: It was close in there somewhere.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.  Now, she came here to work?
MR. PIERCE: She came to work at K-25.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  Okay.  Now, when did you get married, and --
MR. PIERCE: -- we were married in 1960, in May, and we had dated for a couple of years, I guess, or we had known each other for a couple of years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.  So, you got married, and --
MR. PIERCE: We met at Glenwood Baptist Church --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?  Okay.
MR. PIERCE: -- down here on Alabama Road, and that's where we were married --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. PIERCE: -- and so we were both members there at the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right, and so when did you move to this house?
MR. PIERCE: In early -- let's see.  January of '61.  It was in the wintertime.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it?  Okay.
MR. PIERCE: In the wintertime, yes.  I remember that.  We were one of the first, in the first wave, I guess, of buyers of these homes when whatever the company was that had built them and managed them --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- was selling them off, and we bought this house.  We bought this house --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- and of course, when we did that, somebody, whoever was here, had to move.  I felt a little bad --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- about that, but I assumed that company gave the people here, that were living here at the time, an opportunity to buy it --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- I suppose, but we bought it then.
MR. MCDANIEL: You moved here, and how many children do you have?
MR. PIERCE: We have three.  Edward is our oldest.  He is a teacher at a school in Knoxville, and Randall, our son, lives in Nashville, and Nancy is our third one and she lives in Clinton.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?  Okay.  So, what was it like?  I mean what was life like for you and your family and your wife, and community things?
MR. PIERCE: Community?  We were not that involved in "community" activities.  Our major activity has been our church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: We were both members of Glenwood when we got married, and we stayed there at Glenwood for several years, but we were active and involved in church.  She was involved in helping another church with their girls' programs, young girls, teenage girls, and another church that was sort of a mission project for Glenwood, and she was involved in that, and then I guess somewhere around 1972 or 1973, or somewhere in there, one of the former pastors of Glenwood that we knew was serving as an interim pastor of a church in Lake City, Clear Branch Baptist, and they needed a music director.  So, he asked me to come up there and talk with them, so I did that.  I wasn't really interested, I didn't think, in doing it but the Lord sort of changed my mind, I guess.  So, I told them I would come up there as their music director.  I would have been part-time --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- just Sundays and Wednesdays, and we'd try it temporarily, and so I wasn't all that interested, really, and Gloria wasn't all that interested, either, in leaving Glenwood.  But I went up there, and we wound up staying 31 years --
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. PIERCE: -- in Lake City, and we came back to Glenwood in 2002.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. PIERCE: So, that was most of our extra activities, was --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: -- traveling between here and Lake City, and doing the music work there.  My only music training was what I got in the high school band --
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. PIERCE: -- and what I've taught myself, I guess.
[Side Conversation]
MR. MCDANIEL: We're good now.
MR. PIERCE: Okay.  Also, I was involved -- sometime during this time, my two boys were in the Boy Scouts, Troop 129, and I was on the troop committee several of those years while they were in that, and that was a good experience, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. PIERCE: I had been a scout when I was young.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you ever think about leaving Oak Ridge?  Did you ever seriously consider it?
MR. PIERCE: No, not really.  There were times, for instance the times when there was problems with the funding out at the plants, and everybody would be worried about layoffs, and things like that.  I used to think if I had it to do over, I don't believe I would come to work somewhere that depended on government contracts for their funding.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: But then, as I look back on it, when one opportunity was shutting down, there was another one there, so I can't regret it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: It's been a good job, it's been a good experience for both of us, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  What about Oak Ridge as a community to raise your family?
MR. PIERCE: I was happy.  I felt like they had good schools, and even though we were not involved in any activities in Oak Ridge during that time when we were at Lake City maybe, still they stayed in -- they were in the scouts and extracurricular type sports.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. PIERCE: Randall and Nancy played, I guess, softball and basketball some for other organizations.  I think Nancy played for Kern Methodist Church, since we weren't going to church in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.  Now, how about, from when you came here in '56, '57, until today, how has Oak Ridge changed, in your eyes, and what's been good about it and what's been not so good about it?
MR. PIERCE: The changes?  Well, I don't know.  I guess I've seen the city struggle with how they're going to fund everything that the city would like to do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. PIERCE: The tax base, everybody says Oak Ridge has the highest real estate taxes in the state, or among the highest, and it seems to be a struggle there because, when I came, the vote to incorporate happened just a few years after that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure --
MR. PIERCE: I don't remember the date of that --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- '59.
MR. PIERCE: -- '59, okay, and I didn't know anything about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: Then, the city went from I guess being owned and operated by the government to having to go it on its own, sort of --
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: -- but I felt like the schools gave them good opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: Changes?  I don't know.  I don't know what changes I would say that I've noticed all that much that haven't occurred anywhere else.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: I still think it's a good town to live in.  I would choose again to stay here.  I've considered maybe once or twice moving away, I mean outside of the city --
MR. MCDANIEL: Outside of the city.
MR. PIERCE: -- or to another city, but then I thought, "Well, it's nice here, and I like it."  So, that's about all I can say about how it's been here.  It's been a good town for me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is it a good town for you now that you and your wife are older?  I mean do you feel like you have the kind of services that you need?
MR. PIERCE: I think so.  I don't drive much.  Well, hardly any at all because of my Parkinson's, but I feel like if I had to drive somewhere, I could get in there and be extra careful and get there safely.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: As far as health being a major issue, of course, we use doctors in Oak Ridge.  I don't really enjoy going to Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: We went over to Turkey Creek just a couple of days ago --
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, goodness.
MR. PIERCE: -- and I thought, "I'll be glad when I'm out of here."
MR. MCDANIEL: Now is not a good time to go anywhere --
MR. PIERCE: Well, that's true.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- Christmas shopping.
MR. PIERCE: But, in terms of things to do, stores, of course they've closed --
MR. MCDANIEL: A lot.
MR. PIERCE: -- a lot of stores here, but at my age now, I don't need a lot of new clothes, I don't need a lot of these gadgets that everybody thinks you need to have now to survive and to function in society.  I don't need those.  A few things, I do have to go to Knoxville to get, but all of our medical is here in Oak Ridge, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: I was interviewing Dr. Gene Caldwell the other day, and --
MR. PIERCE: I remember he was one of our --
MR. MCDANIEL: -- pediatricians.
MR. PIERCE: -- pediatricians, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: He talked about Oak Ridge, and we were talking about the medical services.  He says, "Outside of a major city in the state of Tennessee, you're not gonna find medical services anywhere like Oak Ridge has."  I mean it's unique that way –
MR. PIERCE: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- for the size of the town it is, to have what it offers --
MR. PIERCE: That's true.
MR. MCDANIEL: -- as really a regional medical center.
MR. PIERCE: The other thing, it's so close to Knoxville that I would have thought that Knoxville would have just sort of swallowed it up and people come to Knoxville for that, but as long as it's available in Oak Ridge, I'm going to take it in Oak Ridge, yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right.  Well, is there anything else you want to talk about, any stories you want to tell on anybody?  Now is your chance.
MR. PIERCE: No, I don't think so.  Like I say, I appreciated the fact that even when I changed from one plant to another, it was almost effortless transition.  All my records followed me, my company service followed me, all of my benefits went with me, and I wound up with the length of service that I did because of that, and later on, DOE decided to split it up, so I don't know how it works.  That opportunity is no longer available, I suppose --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly.
MR. PIERCE: -- for people to move around like that.  When it was all under one company, especially Union Carbide, even though you didn't know what was going on at the other plant, you felt like it was a part of your existence, I guess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, it was a community.
MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir, it was --
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean it was cohesive, you know?
MR. PIERCE: -- and that has changed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, I'm sure.
MR. PIERCE: That part has changed, and I'm thankful that I had the opportunity to be a part of it when it was still all together.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly, exactly.  Well, very good.  I'll just ask this one question, and it's about your work.  There's some people that will say, "If it wasn't for Oak Ridge, the Cold War would still be going on," or, "It was because of Oak Ridge that the Cold War ended," and you would be considered one of the Cold Warriors, I imagine.  Do you have any thoughts about that, any thoughts about your work during the Cold War?
MR. PIERCE: Someone asked me when I told them, when I was just out of college, after I had decided to come here, asked me if my conscience would bother me because knowing what this place was established for and what it did, and the results of the efforts here, wouldn't I feel a little guilty in coming to work here, and that did make me stop and think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: But then, I thought, "No, I don't think so," because you're right, the Cold War was going on at the time, and yes, I feel like that Oak Ridge did have a part in that, that there were a lot of defense-related activities going on during that time.  Whether Oak Ridge, how much influence the city or the activities here had in ending the Cold War, I don't know that I'm qualified to guess, but I feel like there was a part of it, and yes, it was a big part of some of my work --
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. PIERCE: -- sometime during this time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure.  All right, Mr. Pierce.  Well, thank you so much for talking with us.  I really appreciate it.
MR. PIERCE: Well, I've enjoyed it, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, good.
MR. PIERCE: Thank you very much.

[End of Interview]