Higgins, Cecil and Betts

              
ORAL HISTORY OF CECIL AND BETTY (BETTS) HIGGINS
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
May 4, 2013
 
MR. MCDANIEL: My name is Keith McDaniel and today is May the 4th, 2013 and I'm at the home of Mr. Cecil Higgins here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Higgins, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. HIGGINS: You betcha.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's start at the beginning. Why don't you tell me where you were born and raised and something about your family.
MR. HIGGINS: Okay. I was born in Illinois -- Mineral, Illinois -- a little town half way between Chicago and the Mississippi and I lived there for 7 years and then we moved out to Lewistown, Montana.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what did your father do?
MR. HIGGINS: He was a miner. He had his own coal mine out in Montana. He worked in a mine there in Illinois, but he had his own coal mine out in Lewistown. It was real interesting.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you moved there when you were 7, correct?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes. Right. We got to work with Dad some in the summertime when we were 12 or 13 years old. We got to chop down the trees and square them up that he used for bracing in the mine. So that was ... that was good for us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. HIGGINS: And we felt like we were helping out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, did you have brothers or sisters?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes. Had three brothers and one sister. That was the second. I had an older brother, Drek, who was a good pole vaulter. He went to Missouri and was their star pole vaulter for many years. And my brother, Bob, went to Washington State and my brother, Warren, was the youngest brother. He was... he went into the Army early, when he was only 17 years old -- he had to get permission from the parents - so he was in the Marines. And my sister was the youngest, she's eight years younger than I am... or she was. She died... she had Alzheimer's. That was... That's a darned... That's a heck of a disease.
MR. MCDANIEL: Terrible thing...
MR. HIGGINS: It really is...really is...
MR. MCDANIEL: So, there were the... the five of you children and your mom and dad and your dad ran the coal mine in Montana.
MR. HIGGINS: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what year were you born?
MR. HIGGINS: In 1921.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1921. So that would make you...?
MR. HIGGINS: I'm 92.
MR. MCDANIEL: 92! My goodness! You don't look it, that's for sure.
MR. HIGGINS: Well, thank you. I was real active in sports and so I was able -- and I jogged a lot after I retired. But I've slowed down a lot lately. I don't jog any more. But...
MR. MCDANIEL: You're still active, though, aren't you? As much as you can?
MR. HIGGINS: I'm in fairly good shape, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So... So... So... when you... So, 21... So, when you graduated high school, when was that? About 1939?
MR. HIGGINS: In 1938.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1938?
MR. HIGGINS: Right. Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right before the war came about.
MR. HIGGINS: Right, right.And I was at Montana State College for... it was ...Actually, they let our class finish up. I was in ROTC down at Montana State College. It's Montana State University now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. HIGGINS: But we were in ...we went into the Army Reserve while we were taking ROTC and then, but we didn't have to go to the war until ... in 1943.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? 
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were able to finish your college?
MR. HIGGINS: I finished... Yeah, I was lucky, I got to finish up college. They took the juniors but they didn't take us seniors. They let us finish.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, when you were in high school did you know what you were interested in? And what did you end up studying when you were in college?
MR. HIGGINS: I wanted to enroll in chemistry and that's what I did. I took... They had an industrial chemistry course and that's what I enrolled in. So I graduated... They actually graduated me in chemistry ... the chemistry curriculum.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that something you were interested in when you were younger?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes. Well, I actually got most interested in it when I worked out at the gypsum plant in... at Heath, Montana, which is about 10 miles south of Lewistown. I worked there in the lab. It wasn't much chemistry involved with it. We were working with setting times on the plasters and so forth. But it was good training.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Now when did you do that? When you were in high school?
MR. HIGGINS: That was after... I worked a year after I graduated from high school. I stayed out of school for a year and worked at the Heath -- Heath, Montana -- with the U.S. Gypsum Company for a year and saved up my money so I was able to go to college in '39.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So you studied chemistry, you're in ROTC and the Reserves...
MR. HIGGINS: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you graduate from Montana State College in...
MR. HIGGINS: '43.
MR. MCDANIEL: '43. So what happened next?
MR. HIGGINS: Then, I went into the...
MR. MCDANIEL: Because the war was ... in '43 the war was...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, it was... Yeah. I was the last one of our family to go in, in '43.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, I was. And that was kind of interesting. I don't know if I should be telling this or not, I mean, nobody may be...  nobody may be interested.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm interested. Tell me.
MR. HIGGINS: But my mother used to tell us a story about the lady that she knew that had four boys who were in World War I and they all died. They were all killed. And, so, when we went in, all four of us were in combat outfits and so, we never mentioned that again.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I'm sure.
MR. HIGGINS: And she had one bad month in January of '45. She got 4 telegrams. All four of us were in the hospital. But we were... it was one of the ... it's beyond belief, though... only two of us had combat injuries. My brother, Warren and I. The other two had been in the hospital because of yellow jaundice and, I think trench feet or frostbite, that sort of thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you went into the service right after you finished college... 
MR. HIGGINS: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where did you go? Tell me.
MR. HIGGINS: Okay. I went to Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, and in what branch of the service?
MR. HIGGINS: I was in Chemical Warfare Service. Really just infantry with a little chemical training.
MR. MCDANIEL: The Army? Was it the Army?
MR. HIGGINS: In the Army, yes. Right. All of us were in the Army. My brother, Dick, was in the paratroops, my brother, Bob was... that's an interesting story in itself -- that rascal. We wanted him to stay home. He was down in Ft. Rucker, I think it was, in Alabama. And we wanted him to stay there because we wanted one of the family to come out alive. And he says, no, he says, if we were all in combat outfits, by golly, he was going to be in one, too. And so he went over as... gave up his sergeant's stripes and went over with the 80th Division in Italy. Warren was in the 3rd Marine Division.
MR. MCDANIEL: But, where were you?
MR. HIGGINS: I was at Edgewood Arsenal for a while...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where is that?
MR. HIGGINS: In Maryland... near... I guess the closest big town would be Baltimore, maybe. Anyway...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So what did you do there? How long were you there?
MR. HIGGINS: Oh, we had basic training -- 11 weeks basic training - didn't look like we were ever going to get in to a 4.2 Chemical Mortar Battalion. That's what we wanted to be in... And then we went down to ... It was down at ... what's the name of the place just in northern Alabama... camped at camp -- what the heck was it? Camp Sibert, I think it was. Camp Sibert.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. HIGGINS: And while we were there, they let us know that they wanted people to come back and take what they called a Battalion Officers Course at Edgewood Arsenal and then we would go over and be in 4.2 Chemical Mortar Battalions and that was what we were interested in so we went.
MR. MCDANIEL: And where did you end up going?
MR. HIGGINS: I ended up over in France.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. HIGGINS: I was only up one... I was in a replacement depot and I was down at ... back at Cherbourg working with this engineer outfit until they finally got us. And when we... when they sent us back to the replacement depot, I went to see the chemical officer in Paris and we had to -- that's how we got back to the replacement depot -- we drove jeeps for the CIC up to Paris. And while we were there, I did some hiking around and found where the chemical officer was and I went to see him and I said I wanted to be in a 4.2 Chemical Mortar Battalion. And he said, "You'll be in the 89th Chemical Mortar Battalion in one week."
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. HIGGINS: A week went by and the orders came, and it was the 99th Chemical Mortar Battalion. It was not the 89th and that probably... probably saved my life because the 89th was up there in the Bulge and everything and we were -- the 99th -- was the only chemical mortar battalion in the 7th Army. That was a great outfit -- just a great outfit. So, we were there... I got there in January -- January 6th, I think it was, of '45 and was wounded in February 4th of that same year. Was only up 30 days...
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow...
MR. HIGGINS: A Bouncing Betty was tripped by one of the fellows as we were walking up to -- we were going to fire a smoke mission to take Wolfgantzen which was down in the Colmar Pocket... Don't know if you've ever heard of the Colmar Pocket or not but that was... We were the only chemical mortar battalion in the 7th Army and so we got to support the Third Division a lot and we liked the Third Division and we were especially fond of it when we found that Audie Murphy was the one that was in the Third Division. He was right next door to us when he did that climbing up on that tank and repulsing the Germans when they were coming up ... down near Holtzwihr. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Did you see the film, To Hell And Back?
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah...
MR. HIGGINS: That was a good film. And that was his story...
MR. MCDANIEL: His story, yeah, exactly...
MR. HIGGINS: He repulsed the Germans... that's as brave a thing as I've ever heard of -- I mean, climbing up on a tank where you're exposed -- and holding off an entire German army in front of him with the machine gun.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where you when -- in the summer of '45. When... I know you were in the European Theatre.
MR. HIGGINS: I was there until... we came back end of June, I think it was. Came back on the ship. And the -- That fellows... I got to see a bunch of the guys who I went through OCS with at LaHavre. They were ... they had us ... where everybody came before we were going to get on our boats to come back home. And the ships... And I got there, I found that, well, one of the guys had had a bet that I was dead. He'd heard that I was dead. He wasn't very glad to see me! (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: You made him lose his bet! (laughs) So, how did you get out of the service and what did you do after that?
MR. HIGGINS: I got out in the end of '46. I had a year before I got out. Well, not a year. It was in the summer -- July of '46 and I had already talked with some people that were interested in my coming down to the lab and I had a chance to go either to ...um, I'll think of it in a second ... Dow Chemical at Midland working on some of those oil...
MR. MCDANIEL: Midland, Michigan?
MR. HIGGINS: Midland, Michigan, yes. I had a chance to go there or down to Oak Ridge here and I thought the Oak Ridge sounded more interesting to me. And I've never regretted it. I had a ball.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you came here in '46?
MR. HIGGINS: '46, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Fall of '46?
MR. HIGGINS: In August.
MR. MCDANIEL: August... Okay...So you already kind of had been talking and kind of thinking about what you were going to be doing.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where did you go to work? Did you work at the Lab?
MR. HIGGINS: At the Lab. Oak Ridge National Laboratory. It was in a liqiud extraction group that we were working on ways to extract uranium. And what we were doing was using ceilosolve as the extraction and it turned out to be not nearly as good as tributyl phosphate. Tributyl phosphate is the one they ended up with; that was the solvent of choice.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now who did you work for? Who was your manager or who hired you?
MR. HIGGINS: Okay. When I was first hired, it was Ray Stoughton in chemistry and it wasn't very long before I was working with Willis Baldwin -- Dr. Willis Baldwin -- that was one of the smartest organic chemists I've ever known in my life. He was brillaint. I worked with him from about '48 on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So, take me through your career at the Lab just a little bit... What are the things that you did?
MR. HIGGINS: Okay. I was fortunate enough to get to work with Willis on the... they wanted to make some labeled ... P32 labeled tributyl phospate so they could measure losses to the waste stream in their solvent extraction program. So we were given the task of making the labeled tributyl phosphate. And it was... (laughs) we worked like the dickens on that. Our first experiences were not favorable. Best we could do was end up with monobutyl phosphate and we wanted to make tributyl phosphate that was labeled. One day it hit me. I told Willis, I said, "Willis, that's phosphoric acid -- real dilute phosphoric acid solution that they send the ... that we get the tracer in," I said, "Why don't we see if the phosphoric acid will dissolve in tributyl phosphate and if it does we can do the interchange on that mixture."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. HIGGINS: And he said, "Yeah, give it a try." So I give it some experiments and I found that if I made the phosphoric acid anhydrous, it would dissolve in tributyl phosphate and we would heat it up and we ended up with -- our favorite recipe was weigh out one millimole of phosphoric acid then add the tracer which was... we could get it in five millicurie batches at down at the ... Red Williams took care of that for us. As long as you didn't get more than five millicuries at a time you didn't have to pay for it. So, that was nice to be able to do it that way and didn't cost us anything and it only has a half-life of 14 days so you had to make quite a few batches of it. So when we would add the tracer -- that was about 5 ccs solution that we added, since we had the carrier in there we could drive off the water and pump it dry then add 100 millimoles of tributyl phosphate. The recipe that we ended up with worked a hundred to one like that. It... And when we heated it up...  when we could heat it you could try different temperatures -- we did try different temperatures -- but the best one for us was the boiling at 206 degrees. We put the little distilling flask down in the boiling tetrlin.
MR. MCDANIEL: So that was the kind of thing that you did... See, for those of us that aren't chemists, we didn't understand a thing you just said for the last five minutes. (laughter) So, what I wanted you to do is, I wanted you to talk a little bit about, you know, I worked for this department and I did this and maybe I worked on that project and things such as... some of the highlights of your career.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. Well, that was...
MR. MCDANIEL: Or did you stay in the Chemistry Department your whole career?
MR. HIGGINS: No. I was in Chemistry for 25 years. And then I transferred over to the Analytical Chemical Division and I worked in the Smoke Program that they had for about another 23 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: The what program?
MR. HIGGINS: The smoke program. They had a contract with ... well it was with DOE but it was to do to work on tobacco and tobacco smoke so we got to do a lot of gas chromatographs so that worked out real well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there any other big projects that kind of stand out that you were able to work on?
MR. HIGGINS: Let's see... I can't think of anything that was a real project... We did have one that came about a couple of years after I was doing the tributyl phosphate... Oh, yeah, kind of a funny story to tell on that -- you may want to erase it before ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Go ahead...
MR. HIGGINS: It was real funny. A few months after we got the publication, this chemist from Chem Tech came bursting into the lab and he says, "Your method's no good!" he says. I says, "Oh?" He says, "We tried it and we couldn't get... we didn't get any radioactive TBP at all." And I says, "Really," I says, "well tell me: Did you add the carrier phosphoric acid before or after you drove off the water from the tracer?" And he says, "After!" And I says, "Well, your activity all plated out on the glass and it won't come off."
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. HIGGINS: So I says, "You do the method as it’s written in the paper and you won't have any trouble." And a few months later... well, a few weeks later, I saw him in the hall one day and he says, "Well, we got the labeled tributyl phosphate, all right." But I had the feeling, though, that he really was happier when he thought the method didn't work.
MR. MCDANIEL: When he thought that you all were wrong.
MR. HIGGINS: Kind of a funny situation all the way around. But anyway... so that was the end of the tributyl phosphate story. Then, this one was really pretty interesting. We did some collaborating with a good group over in Y-12. Willis was their consultant. He'd had this -- it truly was a brilliant idea -- he wanted to take the tributyl phosphate which had three carboxy bonds to the phosphorus. He wanted to replace those bonds with carbon to two phosphorus bonds. So you'd have butyl group connected directly to phosphorus and then the.. butoxy -- two butoxy groups connected. He wanted to make a series one with one, two, and three carbon to phosphorus bonds.
MR. MCDANIEL: What's the point of his project?
MR. HIGGINS: Well, this one was... Yeah, that's a good point. They had...
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it a nuclear thing?
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, they wanted to extract the uranium from sea sand from Florida in which the uranium was there in trace amounts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.

MR. HIGGINS: And so you had to have a fantastic solvent to get it, so what he wanted... his idea was to replace those bonds, as I said, and so he had he made a series: dibutyl-butyl phosphenate, that's one carbon to phosphorus bond, butyl-dibutyl phosphinate, and then tri-butyl phosphine oxide.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, my transcriptionist will have no idea what you just said. Nor will she know how to spell them... So, let's move on to something that's not quite so technical... So, when did you retire?
MR. HIGGINS: In 1994.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1994.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. I got to work a few years after I was 70 actually.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah. So I was 73 when I retired... almost 74.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you retired, did you consult or did you just say that, "It's over!"
MR. HIGGINS: Actually, I had a project I wanted to finish up. I would have cheerfully worked for nothing out there afterwards, if I could have, but it wasn't allowed. I guess maybe they were worried about legal problems.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. HIGGINS: I couldn't blame them. Anyway, so I didn't get to work after I retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. But you wanted to. You had a project you wanted to finish out there.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, I had a project I wanted to finish up. It was a pretty good idea, too. It was... a purge and trap methods to purge materials that were soluble in water that wouldn't come out like methanol and that sort of thing...some of the nitrites, any number of things that won't come out when you do the purging. And I had a good idea for that, but I never did get to finish it up.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let's go back to when you first came to Oak Ridge. You came in August of '46, you said.
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: You were single, I imagine you were single?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, I was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you live? What were your impressions of Oak Ridge? Those kinds of things.
MR. HIGGINS: Oak Ridge has always been a really interesting place to me. I've never wanted to leave it. I lived in Charleston Hall for a while then finally...
MR. MCDANIEL: Where was Charleston Hall?
MR. HIGGINS: Charleston was up there ... It's up near where the hospital is now just to the east of the hospital a little bit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So you lived there for a while, then...
MR. HIGGINS: And then I moved up to ... some friends at... on Venus Road, there was a... they had a D house there. That's where I met Betts. She lived in a D house also on Venus Road. We ...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right... Now, somebody told me a story about groups of men and groups of ladies who lived in separate D houses and they would get together and have a good time and meet each other... during the war...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, it was...
MR. MCDANIEL: So, that's what you did is... you moved into a house on Venus -- a D house?
MR. HIGGINS: Right, right. And they were... Everybody was trying to get Betts to meet me and me to meet Betts and we said, "No, we're not interested." Then one day, when she was locked out of her house, she came over to get Gordon to see if he could get her into her house and that's how we met.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's how you met. Now, who was living in the house with you?
MR. HIGGINS: A couple of guys from Montana State. Well, Gordon was from Texas some place...Dallas...
MR. MCDANIEL: Gordon?
MR. HIGGINS: The other friend that talked me into moving in there with them. So there were three of us Montana State boys and somebody from Texas -- that was Gordon and then a couple of other guys we didn't know. We met them after we moved in. But we all got along well and it was great.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what was Gordon's last name?
MR. HIGGINS: Gordon Hebert, H-E-B-E-R-T with the funny little slice mark over the "e".
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay... Okay... So how long did you live there?
MR. HIGGINS: Let's see... until... I guess it wasn't over a year or two...
MRS. HIGGINS: July, '48...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, we got married in July of '48.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay, okay... What was it like being young and single in Oak Ridge in those days? I know you worked hard, but...
MR. HIGGINS: I had a lot of... I used up a lot of my time -- probably too much -- on sports. I loved fast pitch softball and, gosh, I must have been on about five teams. Poor Betts had to put up with that for months after we got married.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But there were lots of sports teams.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, there were a lot...
MR. MCDANIEL: Everybody had a team...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, that was before television came in real big and so it was, in fact, it was even a good spectator sport. There were a lot of people in the stands that watched those games. Then television came in and it dropped out. Fast pitch softball showed them a great game -- well it was a great game --  but it could have been a perfect game if they'd had sense enough to move the pitcher's box three feet back. It was too close to the batter and you -- I tell you, you had to start your swing about the time they let the ball loose.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand.
MRS. HIGGINS: Bowling and hiking...
MR. HIGGINS: Oh, yeah. Bowling and hiking... I was involved with all that, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MRS. HIGGINS: Dance...Dancing...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, dancing. Bowling was kind of interesting. I got to be the secretary of the first integrated league that we had in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? When was that?
MR. HIGGINS: That was in about 1960... Oh, gosh, what year was it? Sixty-something.
MR. MCDANIEL: '63, maybe? Sixty...?
MR. HIGGINS: Sixty...Gosh, I forget. I've got that written down somewhere but I don't know where that is...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Now where did you bowl?
MR. HIGGINS: That was at Grove Center Bowling Alley. They were the first ones to allow it.
MRS. HIGGINS: The first one was under the TNC at Jackson Square.
MR. HIGGINS: Oh, yeah, yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: Say that, because she's not mic’d. It was under where?
MRS. HIGGINS: The TNC...
MR. MCDANIEL: I know, I know, but I can't... I can't... You're not mic'd, so I can't hear you.
MR. HIGGINS: Let's see...
MRS. HIGGINS: TNC Cafe...
MR. HIGGINS: TNC Cafe, right. Yeah, there was a bowling alley up there. Yeah, they used to set pins with ... they had pin boys back there that actually did the setting ... Very shortly, they had the mechanics that'd do it for you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. I understand. So y'all were active. Young and active.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, we were active, we were active... sure were...
MR. MCDANIEL: And then you got married in '48.
MR. HIGGINS: '48, correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And where did you move to as a couple?
MR. HIGGINS: Let's see, we lived in a... there was an apartment up there on…
MRS. HIGGINS: Tennessee Avenue.
MR. HIGGINS: Tennessee Avenue. That was a nice little place. Just one big room, two twin beds, but it was a good place, though.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you said that you were the secretary for the first integrated bowling team and you said that was in the ‘60s.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah...
MR. MCDANIEL: How did that come about?
MR. HIGGINS: Oh, bless their bones, the ORINS team -- it's ORAU now -- the ORINS team had a black on their team and they stood up to them when we were bowling ... down to Ark Lanes. We were bowling there at the time. They said, "Well, he can't bowl with you," and they said, "Well, then we can't either," and they dropped out. And so a bunch of the other teams dropped out with them so, it wasn't until we talked with the people at Grove Center that we thought we could do it.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, that's what happened: So, the Ark Lanes folks said you couldn't do it so a bunch of the teams left...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah... teams dropped out.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you went to Grove Center to... and they said, "Yes."
MR. HIGGINS: Well, they let us. That was funny: We drove the people that stayed with the Ark Lanes it drove them crazy because we had one extra team and rather than have the ... a bye each time... the team that would have to sit out we had it be kind of the ...the revolving team -- had the same name each week but it was a different team!
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. So you put a team together that was...
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, we had about... I think there were 7 teams in the league and the next year it was 12. We did pretty well. We had a good time!
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when did you and your... When did ... Did you and your wife have children?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes. Well, not for a while. It wasn't until... It was in about 1957...we were married in '48 and it was about '57 when the first was born.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure... And how many children did you have?
MR. HIGGINS: Three.
MR. MCDANIEL: Three?
MR. HIGGINS: Two girls and a boy.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right, all right... And by this time, with the family, where were you living?
MR. HIGGINS: With family was in, first it was on Robertsville Road. 638 Robertsville. And then we moved over to East Village on Alhambra.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. HIGGINS: And we bought that house -- when they were sold, we bought the house on Alhambra.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, right... Now what activities were you and your wife involved in in town and what kind of activities have you all done. I mean groups, organizations, you know, things such as that?
MR. HIGGINS: We had, as I mentioned to you before, Betts taught swimming for the Red Cross for 50 years and she ran the Red Cross program at the Oak Ridge swimming pool for many years and she also was active with YWCA. As I say, I was real active with fast pitch softball. One kind of interesting thing, I tried to integrate the softball leagues in 1947 and, boy! Did I hit a stone wall and a buzz saw on that. I was kind of disappointed in the Lab at that. I thought they were encouraging, what do you... what's the word I want to use? It wasn't right not to let them play if they wanted. But it was... it caused such a commotion that actually the lad had on the roster and I wanted to play with, but he saw how much difficulty was being caused he just dropped out of his own accord. He didn't want to see a big...
MR. MCDANIEL: ... cause any problems...
MR. HIGGINS: It was nice of him, but it was too bad.
MR. MCDANIEL: But that was in '47...
MR. HIGGINS: That was in '47. That was a long time before they finally did any...
MR. MCDANIEL: Any real integration.
MR. HIGGINS: Integrating, right. And I thought they could have stopped that earlier but they had...
MR. MCDANIEL: But you said you integrated the fast pitch ball?
MR. HIGGINS: No, that's what I tried to do in '47.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. HIGGINS: But it didn't work...
MR. MCDANIEL: So what other activities were you involved in?
MR. HIGGINS: Let's see... Oh, I was a kind of reluctant Scout Master for several years. I was an assistant for ... with the Latter Day Saint Troop -- I can't even think of the number that we were now, but anyway, we did a lot of hiking with them. We took them from Fontana up to Davenport Gap within the park. You couldn't do what we did the first time. If the shelters were full, we'd just camp alongside them or back of them, but then they stopped that. They figured that... they only wanted people... as many people near the shelter as were there... as there were spaces, so... So we did the... One time we did it staying outside when we had to and then the next time we did it, because I was the assistant that time. Then when I was the Scout Master by then they had it arranged so that you had to ... you could only have the same number of people at the shelter as there were spaces. So you had to get up there and get signed in for them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right...
MR. HIGGINS: But we were lucky and we were able to do it. They liked it.
MRS. HIGGINS: Dance club...
MR. MCDANIEL: Talk a little bit about the dance club.
MR. HIGGINS: That was good.
MR. MCDANIEL: When was this?
MR. HIGGINS: Oh, gosh sakes... that was in... We were still living on ... Heck, that would have been probably '55 or '60.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay... What was it and where did you have it and who all were involved?
MR. HIGGINS: There were always a pretty good crowd. We would fill up the dance floor there at ... where was it?
MRS. HIGGINS: In the Green Room at the Recreation Center for years and when they closed that, we moved to the YWCA room. We dropped out just a few years ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. HIGGINS: But he was president, part time.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were ... you were members of the dance club for decades.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, for quite a while...
MRS. HIGGINS: We were the first dance club that's still going on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. The Oak Ridge Dance Club. It's still going on. So, okay...
MRS. HIGGINS: And I would say we had lots of friends there in it for many years we entertained. We had dinner in each other's homes. You know there weren't any restaurants to speak of and so we had lots of dinner parties, bridge parties for a long time, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: I wish you'd agreed to be on camera and talk to us.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, she's much better at that sort of thing than I am.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, let's talk about your kids for a little bit. I'm sure they were active in the schools and all activities and things such as that, weren't they?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes. Our son, as I mentioned to you before, was the goalie on the soccer team at Oak Ridge High. They were pretty good -- they were pretty darned good. They didn't win state, but they had some good games, though. And our second daughter, Sally, was also on the soccer team and that was some game that they had in the rain. I never saw so many muddy kids in my life.
MR. MCDANIEL: So they were involved in sports, weren't they? Is there anything you'd like to talk about? Anything else you'd like to discuss? Talk about your life your activities in Oak Ridge, things such as that.
MR. HIGGINS: I should mention I didn't give Willis credit on the patent. He got a patent for that work that he did, you know with substituting carbon to phosphorus bonds for the bonds. He got a patent on that. They used his... an extension of his method for extracting uranium from sea sands. And so that was really ... that was pretty nice. He got some notoriety for that and he should. It was a brilliant idea. And that's all I want to say about that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Anything else?
MR. HIGGINS: Oh! Let me brag! We had an all-star team that played the Clearwater Bombers one summer and I was the only one of our team that got a hit. Those guys were good. I got a double and batted in our only run and... We got beat finally; two to one, but we had a ball. So, that was my moment of triumph, I guess you'd say.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year was that? Do you remember?
MR. HIGGINS: That was about...had to be about '50... '49 or '50.
MR. MCDANIEL: How long did you play? How long did the softball league last?
MR. HIGGINS: Well, the fast pitch kind of went from about when I first came down here was '46. It was at its height then and until about 1952 or '53. And then the leagues kind of folded up. We still had some games but it was not nearly as popular then. And then they went to, that was about the time they started slow pitch and everybody can play slow pitch, so that became quite popular and fast pitch went by the boards. You don't see any more fast pitch at all.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you've been here since 1946 so you've seen Oak Ridge go through a lot of changes.
MR. HIGGINS: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: What are some of the things, as you look back, what are some of the things that you think were positive and maybe some things that could need some work?
MR. HIGGINS: Well, the integration attempts finally went pretty well. They were a little tough getting started but they went very well. Let me see, I was trying to think what else. Oh, Betts ran the swimming pool out at the Country Club for many years, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. HIGGINS: That was a good experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So there were lots of things for people to do, weren't there? 
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, there were.
MR. MCDANIEL: And for children as well. Lots of activities.
MR. HIGGINS: Yeah, there were. I don't think of anything else that we were involved in that I could talk about. I think we should let Betts do the talking. Let's get her over here and have this and go ahead.
MR. MCDANIEL: All right, let's see if we can talk her into it. Hold on just a second.
[Break in video]
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, well, we're going to continue our conversation with Betty Higgins, or Betts, I guess, as you're best known. And, your husband talked a little bit about your all's life here in Oak Ridge and things you're involved in. So what are some of the things that he kind of didn't mention that you think are important to what you all did? And just look at me...
MRS. HIGGINS: Okay. Well, we were involved in church. I'm a Mormon, and he's not, but he went to the church with me and took our children and helped them with projects they had in church. In the early years of our marriage, we had lots of dinner parties. People who came to Oak Ridge were very surprised that we would have a dinner and would have made everything from the entree to dessert because there was no place to buy things. There was, like, I think, one restaurant then. We had little places where you could buy Coke or something like that, but that was it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But there's no real nice restaurants where you could go have a nice dinner.
MRS. HIGGINS: No, there weren't. We did a lot of home entertaining. And we did a lot of events. Oak Ridge had a lot of activities. Like, there was a dance at Ridge Hall every Sunday evening. And there was a dance at Jefferson on Wednesdays and there was a square dance at the Middletown Recreation Center and then, on Saturday night, we had the big dance at Grove Center after that was built.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MRS. HIGGINS: That was... and had a band made up of Oak Ridgers... they were very good, the Rhythm Engineers.
MR. MCDANIEL: The Rhythm Engineers. I've seen a photograph of them.
MRS. HIGGINS: They were very good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, what about the other ... the other dance halls? Did they play records or was there live music there?
MRS. HIGGINS: Sunday afternoon was... what's his name? Bill...? 
MR. MCDANIEL: Bill Pollock.
MRS. HIGGINS: Bill Pollock, yeah, he played. And there was a man who did singing with one of the records and all of the rest of it was live ... live bands. Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So how long did those dance clubs last? How long did that go on?
MRS. HIGGINS: I think until like 1950.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Right. Those were the early days.
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah, those were the early days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. But you mentioned a while ago that the dance club that you belonged to now, or just ... you belonged to for decades, didn't you?
MRS. HIGGINS: We belonged to the Oak Ridge Dance Club for a long time. And other dance clubs, as they faded, they joined our dance club. But we just got busy and just not that interested in dancing that much and so we dropped out of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where do they meet? And how often?
MRS. HIGGINS: They meet at the YWCA in the Nancy Stanley Room. That's about the biggest place you could rent in Oak Ridge, and they still dance there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Now, you were also talking about some of the -- and I want you to talk about your swimming. Let's talk about that for a second. Your husband mentioned you taught swimming for 50 years.
MRS. HIGGINS: I did. I ran the program for the Red Cross for like 12 years and then I became the instructor/trainer. I trained all of the swimming, lifesaving, water safety people. And then, I went out to the Oak Ridge Country Club and I ran the concession there and the swimming pool as manager for 17 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? And your husband said you taught swimming lessons for 50 years or so.
MRS. HIGGINS: Yes, I was teaching all the time from 1954... I don't know when the last. I don't know when I left there ... Forgotten the date... Anyway, it was a long time there. And I ran the Country Club program until Cecil retired and then I decided to quit to spend some time with him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand.
MRS. HIGGINS: We had... we were involved... there were like 12 of us who did a lot of ... we had bridge club and dinner with each other and over the years, I guess when our daughter, our oldest child, was about 18 months, we took up camping. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay...
MRS. HIGGINS: And we've done a lot of camping with friends. We had a group that we went to Pickett State Park every Fourth of July weekend for a long time. And then after that, we went on the Fourth of July every year -- that weekend. And then, Jack Monaghan and Dora, his wife, had a party that'd been going on for a long time at their house. They had a cook-out and when our oldest child went to college, we started going there. Pretty much after the kids... weren't... that period where they didn't much want to be seen with their parents.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, do the kids like camping now?
MRS. HIGGINS: Oh, yes, they do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because, you know, that can backfire on you, taking your kids camping every summer.
MRS. HIGGINS: Our daughter, Sally, our middle child, is getting ready right now to go camping with her family and his family -- her husband is Reece Danna -- and they camp at a lake near... well some miles from their home. Anyway... It's a TVA lake. They go there and fish. All the family fishes. They have a boat and spend a lot of time doing that. But they camp with his family. We're invited but we prefer not to go.
MR. MCDANIEL: The ... because the reason I say that is because that's what I did when I was growing up, is every summer that was our vacation. We went camping.  And now, my idea of roughing it is Motel 6. That's what I say.
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So was it pretty easy? Seems like, you know, from all the things you were involved in it seemed to be pretty easy to make friends in Oak Ridge, I mean, through the years. Was it? Or did you have to try?
MRS. HIGGINS: Well, have a bunch. We don't see as many now. As a matter of fact, they're dying one at a time, now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand...
MRS. HIGGINS: But we had a group of friends that we ran with -- we went to plays and movies. Had a bunch went there and played bridge and have dinner with each other, you know... all that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Exactly...
MRS. HIGGINS: Oak Ridge is a fairly friendly place. I know a lot of people have come to Oak Ridge and didn't like it and left.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MRS. HIGGINS: But I think it's a pretty nice place.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now where did you grow up?
MRS. HIGGINS: I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you. Okay. And how did you end up in Oak Ridge?

MRS. HIGGINS: Well, my dad came to work here... I think he was working at the shipyards in Jacksonville and he was approached to come here and he came here and worked at K-25 and I can tell you practically nothing of what he did. He didn't talk about it while he was working and he never did afterwards, either. I just know he talked about corrosive pipes at K-25 and that's all I can tell you.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand... So, what year did you come here?
MRS. HIGGINS: I came here in 1944, but after I graduated from 10th grade in Florida at Lee High School and came to Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. And then you met Cecil and...
MRS. HIGGINS: I met Cecil... we lived right across the street from each other on Venus Road. I lived with five other girls and he lived with five other men.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, see, the reason I was asking you earlier about who those people were is because I've heard that story. I've interviewed somebody who lived in one of those houses and I can't remember who it was.
MRS. HIGGINS: Fred Nelson?
MR. MCDANIEL: No...
MRS. HIGGINS: I guess he's about the best know there, but Cecil's two friends from Montana, they both left here to go to Berkeley and one was head of Chemistry Department at University of Arkansas, I think Fayetteville, and the other fellow ended up with his own chemical company down in Albuquerque.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well what other things do you want to tell me that y'all were involved in in the community that you want to tell me about?
MRS. HIGGINS: Well, I guess the thing I mentioned was that I started the canoeing program for Oak Ridge along with the help of Reid Gryder was a very good canoeist. We started out. We went on lots of trips and took lots of kids and other families.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year was that when you started that? About?
MRS. HIGGINS: That was in the late ‘60s. I don't think they have the program any more. But it was a very successful program. We trained a lot of instructors and we took people on trips on the rivers around this area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where was kind of your home area? Out by the marina? Where the marina is now?
MRS. HIGGINS: No. We had ... we used our own canoes. The Red Cross had one canoe. We had three canoes. And Cecil was on the board of the Campfire Girls for a long time. He was a resident director also and so, we used our canoes and other people brought their canoes to it and we trained out at Carbide Park. At one time there were cables running from the top of trees so we could have the gates out in the middle of the lake and we could learn to navigate through those gates -- until the cables were stolen. That ended that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? My goodness. Well... So, that lasted a long time, that canoeing program?
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah. The children enjoyed that. And Sally became a canoeing instructor. She liked that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what was that... was that just something you started independently or did you do it through the Red Cross?
MRS. HIGGINS: I did it through the Red Cross. Yes, I ran the program -- the Red Cross program at the swimming pool and with all the water around here I thought that we should know how to canoe. Use the water. We had a couple of training classes out at the yacht club at Concord. We did sailing, just an introduction to all these things so that we could talk to our students about that -- how to do it and the safety aspects of all of it. I'm very interested in safety.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. I interviewed Eileen Handler the other day whose husband was a big sailor and they had their... they worked out of Concord Marina. Did you know her?
MRS. HIGGINS: No, I don't know her... I'm sorry.
MR. MCDANIEL: What else -- what activities were you involved in that you want to kind of remember?
MRS. HIGGINS: Well, for some years when the children were growing up, you know, the children are your entertainment. We went to everything they went to. We were involved in the Playhouse. I did costumes for that and I also did make-up for the children's part of the theatre and my children were involved in that. Sally starred in two or three plays at the Playhouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: This was when Marguerite was running things?
MRS. HIGGINS: Marguerite Ebert, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: For the Junior Playhouse...
MRS. HIGGINS: Yes. She did the Junior Playhouse. That was a good experience for all of us. We were... we went for a lot of years we belonged to ORCMA and I belonged to ORCMA Guild -- started out as "ladies" but it was so good the men joined, too. The children were, all of them, of course, involved in piano lessons, ballet and all that stuff. Went through that. Cecil was with Junior Great Books group and I guess we both went through that program.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that?
MRS. HIGGINS: Great Books comes from the University of Chicago and they had a training class so that you could learn to be a leader of a group of children. But we -- I didn't do the children... didn't lead the children's program, but they had the adult part of the program. And Cecil was in that for several years before I joined that. I was the babysitter and he went out. That was my choice.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was that to teach people to read or to teach them ...?
MRS. HIGGINS: No. It's just a really good literature. All the best authors, the major things, government, politics, art... It's an excellent program. The group took turns leading that. There's... we belong to the Friends of the Library book discussion group and we read anything we want to -- the group makes the choice of what book we will read and it's anywhere from comedy, history, so forth, anything like that. We're in that. Cecil was in the ORICL group in the old... older books... classics... It's called a classics group, so I joined that, too. So we're both in two reading groups now.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you're big readers. Have you always been big readers?
MRS. HIGGINS: Yes. Too much. All you have to do is look around. But ... we take classes. We've taken classes all the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: At ORICL?
MRS. HIGGINS: Yes. And of course we've been members of the Friends of the Library. I think I started that in the '60s and was president for a year and been on the board for a long time. I joined the Arboretum in the '60s and was on the board there about 20 years. It's a great thing to do. Cecil was a helper when I joined that. Naturally, whatever I do, if I need any help Cecil is right there to help me with that... that's continued.
MR. MCDANIEL: But you got to stay busy, you know. When the kids are gone, you got to have things to do, you know. And you have to ... feel like you're contributing something.
MRS. HIGGINS: Well, we're not contributing as much to the city now as we are just enjoying ourselves with the reading and...
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, there comes a point where it's time for somebody else and you need to relax a little bit as much as you can.
MRS. HIGGINS: Well, we help with the book sale, that's a big deal. We get thousands of books donated to the Library and the Library goes through and gets the ones that they want to keep and then the Friends get the rest of them. We sort them. Let's see, we finished sorting them yesterday and they're put away now. We'll be taking them out of the boxes next Tuesday and putting them up on the shelves. Cecil puts up the shelves for the ...extra shelves they need for the sale and we put them in categories as much as we can and sell them and all the money goes to the Library.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how many times a year... Do you do that twice a year or once a year --  the book sale?
MRS. HIGGINS: Three times.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is it three times?
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: I thought it was more than once a year...
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah... it's at least three times... three times a year. And it takes a lot of help to put that thing together. It's a good group. It used to be just my friends and I were sorting books. Then, it began to be popular, so we have a good bit of help now. Really loyal members. All they want to do is do the books and have the book sale. They aren't interested in any activities that might go along with that, so...
MR. MCDANIEL: But I'm sure you're glad for the help.
MRS. HIGGINS: We have given them probably $90,000 by this time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MRS. HIGGINS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, is there anything else you want to talk about? Anything else?
MRS. HIGGINS: I don't think so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, thank you. I'm glad we were able to talk you into sitting and letting us put the camera on you for a little bit. Kind of fill in some of the holes and talk a little bit more about some of the things that your husband had talked about. I certainly appreciate it.
MRS. HIGGINS: You're very welcome.

[End of Interview]

[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mr. and Mrs. Higgins’s request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]