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ORAL HISTORY OF RICHARD (BERT) SCHAPPEL
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
May 8, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is May 8, 2013, and I am in the home of Richard Schappel, but you go by the name Bert Schappel.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Thank you for taking the time to talk with us.
MR. SCHAPPEL: You're welcome.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let’s talk a little bit, let’s go back to the very beginning of you. So tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I was born in Brooklyn, New York, in 1922. My family, from the time I was 5-years-old, decided they wanted to move out in the suburbs and we moved to a community called Mahwah, New Jersey.
MR. MCDANIEL: Called what?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Mahwah, New Jersey.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: New Jersey, I lived there until I was 20 years old.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Now what year were you born?
MR. SCHAPPEL: 1922.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1922. So did you have brothers and sisters?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, I have a younger brother and a younger sister.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what did your father do?
MR. SCHAPPEL: My father was an accountant.
MR. MCDANIEL: Alright, so where did you go to school?
MR. SCHAPPEL: This is grammar school, the university or what?
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, up through high school where did you go to high school?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I went to high school in the neighboring town called Ramsey, New Jersey, three miles away. When I graduated, I got a job in New York as a courier and went to New York University at night, which is very slow at getting through to a degree.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And I did that from 1938 to 1942. I was taking chemistry. A neighbor who had just gotten a job as the head of a lab in a war factory just north of Little Rock, Arkansas, asked my parents if they'd let me go work for him. And I thought, “Why is he asking them what I can do?” But I went to work for him.
MR. MCDANIEL: In Arkansas?
MR. SCHAPPEL: The town was called Jacksonville, Arkansas. And now it’s an airfield.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? I guess that was a big change for a city boy though, wasn't it?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, Mahwah was a commuter community, not a country community.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But close to it.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, this was war work, is that correct?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so tell me a little bit about it. What was the company? What did you do and what were they doing?
MR. SCHAPPEL: The company was contracted through the Federal Government and called Ford, Bacon, and Davis, the plant was called the Arkansas Ordinance Plant. And we made explosives for the Federal Government for shells.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you had a background in chemistry so is what you did, you did chemistry work there?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, I did the chemistry work and they hired a bunch of high school kids to work on procedures and I thought I was going to do that. In no time at all, they had things that required more knowledge of chemistry than high school kids would have and I got a title of Special Analyst, or something like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: But you had not finished your degree yet, is that correct?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I had about 2 years more to go, 2 to 2 1/2 years more to go.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you did that from, what years did you say?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it was '43, but it was only for about 9 months.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: And the boss called me in one day and said, “You’re not going to get deferment. I advise you to go to finish your education if you can, before you get drafted. So I did two things. I enlisted in the enlisted Reserve Corp. In the fall of '43, I went to the University of Texas, which I felt that I could afford. All along I had been paying for my education.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was why when I was going to NYU. It was slow business and I could afford that because I didn't make much money.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So I went to the University of Texas and the Enlisted Reserve Corps was called up while I was in my first term at the University of Texas. So I got called up and went into the Army and I went to what was known as Army Specialized Training Corp, ASTC. And there from after going through basic training in a community called Tyler, Texas, I was transferred to Michigan State and I was there for a little over a half a year when they abandoned the ASTC program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we all wondered what was going to happen to us. Then they marched us out into an open, snow covered field, and there were railroad coaches there at the end. They just said, “Orders in.” We got in and took off, but we didn't know where we were going to go.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now when was this?
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was the January '43.
MR. MCDANIEL: January '43. Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Thought I got the dates straightened out here. All this happened in ’42, and this first thing happened in '43.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So in January of '43, they put you on a train in Michigan.
MR. SCHAPPEL: In Michigan.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you didn't know where you were going?
MR. SCHAPPEL: We didn't know where we were going. The only thing, it became obvious to me, I could smell when we went through the Chicago stockyards.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I knew we were going west.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we went to a camp, an Army camp in Wisconsin and I was in the 76th division.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And I was there in the division for almost a year when we were sent overseas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was this just regular Army at that point?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Infantry.
MR. MCDANIEL: Infantry. Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They wanted bodies at that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So you were there about a year and then you got sent overseas?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, we went overseas from, it was called Camp McCoy. It’s now called Fort McCoy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Which means it’s a permanent installation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So when did you leave to go overseas, and where did you go?
MR. SCHAPPEL: My port of evacuation was Boston. We left Thanksgiving Day of '43, and went to England. And then from England, we were shipped across to France and we took, probably a long trip because I kept hearing about the Bulge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But we weren't moving very fast, but we did get to the Bulge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. SCHAPPEL: We were in it, we were committed to back up the 17th Airborne, which was going on the offensive trying to relieve Bastogne and troops there. Bastogne was relieved before we got committed. The 17th Airborne was told they weren't needed either and so we were changed and we went to another sector of the line in Luxemburg.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And from there we went into the Siegfried line and fought our way through to south of Berlin and the war was over then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Alright.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We were training to learn how to storm the beaches of Japan like many other divisions were at that time, when one of the brass got up and said, "You guys can all go home!" I thought, “What is he talking about? We're going to go to Japan,” and he said, "Japan has surrendered." Well, it was all due to the atomic bomb that we dropped on two cities in Japan and the atomic bomb was made in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Where is that? That wasn't true, the bomb was not made in Oak Ridge. The material for the bomb was made in Oak Ridge, but not the bomb.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But that is when I learned about Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: That is when you first heard of Oak Ridge?
MR. SCHAPPEL: That’s right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you finished up your service?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I went back to the University of Texas to finish up because I had not. I cherish the moment that I made that decision because my allegiance to the University of Texas is great.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And Tennessee is second but I graduated from the University of Texas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So, as long as you say UT we are in good shape?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We both are orange and white.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yep, both UT. So when you finished, you finished and got your degree in chemistry.
MR. SCHAPPEL: In chemical engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Chemical engineering. Did you go on to work on a masters, or did you go to work?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I did when I came here.
MR. MCDANIEL: So when you finished at Texas, what did you do?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I went to work for Phillips Petroleum Company, and I went to work for the Mathieson Alkali Corporation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: A friend of mine who is, well, he wasn't a friend, he was someone I knew, he offered me a job so I went to Mathieson Alkali and I spent time in Houston, Texas, and then in Lake Charles, Louisiana, and it was from there that I applied for work in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what kind of work were you doing in Houston?
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was all chemical engineering. It started off with fertilizer and sulfuric acid. Well, basically that was it, they were experimenting different uses for bi-products in the manufacture of fertilizer.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see, I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We still did that in Mathieson Alkali.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you found a job out at, in Oak Ridge, or you applied for a job in Oak Ridge.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right, and I was accepted to go to Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: What year was that?
MR. SCHAPPEL: ’54.
MR. MCDANIEL: ‘54?
MR. SCHAPPEL: ‘53 or ’54.
MR. MCDANIEL: That’s okay. So, you got a job and you came to work at Y-12?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me who hired you, and who did you work for, and what did you do their first?
MR. SCHAPPEL: That is a good question.
MR. MCDANIEL: [laughs]
MR. SCHAPPEL: The guy that hired me, I know he is dead.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Eventually I worked for, my memory fails me here. Well, I worked for several places at Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The Engineering Division and in Operations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And back to Engineering.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And then I worked for Operations Analysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: At Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: From there I got transferred to K-25.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: To development.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Eventually to production analysis.
MR. MCDANIEL: So when you say you got transferred to K-25 for Development, what that says to me is you worked on making the barrier better, more efficient.
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, no.
MR. MCDANIEL: You didn't?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Never even knew that. Never had anything to do with barrier except that it, of course, still a national secret.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Of course.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We can't talk much about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. I understand. I understand.
MR. SCHAPPEL: There were a lot of other things. There were many other things you could do, even at K-25, even though it alone is a single purpose.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: To separate U-235 from U-238.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But there were a lot of side operations.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, a lot of different things. They were experimenting, I imagine, too.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Most definitely.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. Is that the kind of work you did at Y-12 research type things?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, it was production then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it production then?
MR. SCHAPPEL: And it is nearing support of production.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Developing new processes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now, how long did you stay at K-25?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Until I was 70, and I'm guessing that was around ’92.
MR. MCDANIEL: Until you retired? Is that when you retired from K-25?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I had to.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They didn't want me anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-oh.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I think it might be a little later, I think it might be 70, I might've been 72. I hung on for quite a while. So that would be ’94, maybe.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, ‘94. Now what happened at, what were they doing at K-25, in general terms, after they shut down the cascade? Were they still doing development work?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Some. They were also producing lower assay material for nuclear power reactors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And submarine reactors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I now know the centrifuge program was going after that as well, wasn't it?
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was going, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was going, too, so…
MR. SCHAPPEL: I worked a little bit on that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Alright. So well, let’s go back to when you first came to Oak Ridge and you said that was ‘53 or ‘54.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now were you married, or were you single?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I met my wife here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. What were your impressions of Oak Ridge at that time?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Sooty and dirty.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. SCHAPPEL: There was smoke everywhere. You could cough it up sometimes if you were at the right place you coughed coal dust.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, because that is how the whole town was heated, wasn't it?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Speaking of coughing.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I moved to a Garden Apartment with two other guys. But first I lived in a private home. These guys wanted me to go in and they had space and they needed someone to pay for another 1/3 of the rent.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And so I went there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I stayed there and my wife lived, at the time she was just my girlfriend, lived on the second floor and I lived on the third floor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And I met her. We were interested both in the Oak Ridge Chorus.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Seeing her around a lot, got invited to parties they had at their apartment.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we had one beer bust at our apartment.
MR. MCDANIEL: [laughs]
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was a beer bust.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Anyway, I got to know her. Then we fell in love and so we were married.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was she working here in Oak Ridge?
MR. SCHAPPEL: She was working at X-10.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was she? Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: She was secretary to Doctor Taylor who was the Head of the Chemistry Division.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay, alright. Now so when you got married did you, what did you do, did you move? Move to another apartment, or to a house?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, we moved to another apartment. At least we still had two Garden Apartments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We stayed there till we could buy a house. We bought a house in West Village. Then during that time there were efforts with land sales and land was offered through Home Management by DOE, in 1959 I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we got in with a group of buyers and we eventually became the West Ridge Corporation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Tell me a little bit about that.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, there were, I think there were, 69 people that subscribed to that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we had to invest in a bond. And then prepay on a lot.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And got a contractor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: He developed this area.
MR. MCDANIEL: It is this area that we are sitting in, which is West Outer Drive, is that correct?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. Right. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: That whole development was this area, wasn't it?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it went, it started east of us this way.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And it went to the county line.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Contractor A.E. Bost was used to design the layout for the West Ridge Corporation and we had officers, and lots were sold.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: After a while lots went in. There were lots to determine who would be first, second, third, or fourth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Accept your choice.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And we came in fourth.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you?
MR. SCHAPPEL: At the time we had quite a few, quite a big choice. So we bought this lot we are on, and then we built a house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, this was the corporation just for the development of this area and the lots?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Or did it have anything to do with building houses?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No it didn't, you had to get your own.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was just the development, it was available to, I guess, put in everything that needed to be here, right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. The city put in power.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And the developer put in the water.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And sewer. And so we built the house in 1964.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And moved in in ’64. By that time our children were getting older.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The first one was going to grammar school by that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: He had been in the Oak Ridge Nursery School and then we moved him to, he went to St. Mary’s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Grammar school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The others went when it was time for them to go, they got on a bus in the front of the house here. Went to St. Mary’s also.
MR. MCDANIEL: They all went to St. Mary’s.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They all graduated from St. Mary’s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay. Alright.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The oldest went to Tennessee Tech, but he didn't like it. So he quit for a while. After trying to find his fortune working for one of the fast food places, he decided he would rather go back to school.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: He was getting close to his, time was running out on him.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure exactly.
MR. SCHAPPEL: He went to Tennessee, the University of Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MR. SCHAPPEL: He became very interested in one professor and the professor’s philosophy on earning money. So he has followed that ever since, that philosophy. He is an entrepreneur in Texas, back in Texas.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: But he has established his own corporation. He has established his own corporation, and went broke and he's established a new one now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And apparently he is doing alright.
MR. MCDANIEL: So were you and your wife, and when the kids were coming up, involved in the community? What were some of the things you all were involved in?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh yeah. We were much involved. My wife, oh she went in first, when she felt she could leave home.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: When the kids were all in school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: First, she went on Meals on Wheels, but then she got interested in, she had always been interested in swimming. She got interested in competitive swimming.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: For years, she was the competitor in Swimmin’ Women.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: In fact, when she died, she was an officer in the Southeast American Swimming Association.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Is that right? So did she teach?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes, she taught swimming.
MR. MCDANIEL: Competitive swimming and…
MR. SCHAPPEL: She taught for the Red Cross.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did she?
MR. SCHAPPEL: The Red Cross.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Swimming in the evenings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. A couple of few days ago, I interviewed Betts Higgins.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Higgins. Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, I interviewed her and her husband. She talked about the Red Cross swimming.
MR. SCHAPPEL: When Oak Ridge swimming people felt they could organize a national swimming meet, Betts and I were in the, it was called the scoring room. We placed people in what heat and the record of what they've done.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: How well they've done.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. SCHAPPEL: There are people, there are a lot of things. Swimmers are Prima Donnas.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: And if they are good they want to be recognized as good.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand. I understand.
MR. SCHAPPEL: When the kids got older, I took basketball coaching.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I did it only one [time].
MR. MCDANIEL: What did you [do]?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I helped out one year and then I did it one year and then I did it for half a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is this for the Boys Club?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I did it for St. Mary’s.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Then I was a member of, I was elected a member of the West Ridge Corporation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Then I became the treasurer. I stayed with that right until the end, and I guess it was around 10 years I was the treasurer of the West Ridge Corporation.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: When all the lots were sold, we had to do something, we had been incorporated. The state had papers on us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They voted me to be the one to put the corporation to bed. I had to find out how you did that.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: I went to a lawyer in Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I was worried about all the records we had. We wanted to put them somewhere.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: After all those meetings and sales and near collapses and not collapses…
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I felt we ought to put all our papers somewhere.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The University of Tennessee took them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I was very grateful I drove the car with records all over the backseat, and the trunk and what not. And they took the whole thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, that’s great, that is great. Now, what other activities were you and your wife, were you all ever involved in politics?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, well, the other thing I got into, I joined the Committee of 50.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that?
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was an organization to advise politicians on what we felt the people would want in the way of things in the developing city, what needed to be developed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I wasn't in the Committee of 50 long when I got to be chairman of a committee trying to save Roane State for Oak Ridge. The governor was into this. Two things happened: first there was the chance that Oak Ridge Roane State would be abandoned. It was in the West Mall Building, which doesn't exist anymore, and Cuyler Dunbar, the Roane State President at Harriman, left for another job.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The state and the engineering, I mean the local educational circles wanted to do something about it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They decided they wanted to build another building for Oak Ridge, for Roane State. And there was a lot of work done by some people and at Carbide Engineering. All of which got rejected.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And eventually, the decision on the part of the governor and our present Secretary of Education…
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: …was to move it out on the Parkway. And we thought that was a terrible thing for Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: To lose the community college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: There had been an effort to bring a college to Oak Ridge to develop one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: It didn't do too well. The man they had elected to be president, he retired after a year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And it started to fade away after that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: We resolved to, well the Committee of 50 made me the chairman of the committee to save the Oak Ridge outlook and from that we evolved into building a higher education center in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So, we worked from 1986 to 1990.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Our goals changed a little bit all the time. But it was obvious that we had to revise them and we had always had Roane State in mind.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But we had thought that we could with Roane State as the anchoring institution, we could really bring some other institutions in like Maryville College and Tennessee Wesleyan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Into teach the third and fourth years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, none of that worked too well, and Roane State didn't get along too very well with Tennessee Wesleyan management.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So, in desperation we wrote a report and asked for the City Council and City Planning Commission to consider building a secondary higher education center. Tom Hill of the Oak Ridger helped us.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: All of this eventually changed and then the discussions taken place. One thing that happened is that…
MR. MCDANIEL: But your concept was to build a building and let these other colleges come in?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, that was the whole idea.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was the idea.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But in the meantime, Roane State got moved into the Pellissippi campus.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Didn't work at all either. And so they were looking for a place to come back into Oak Ridge just automatically.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: At the time the Nautilus Building was ready.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And it was revised. In the meantime, there were moves in the State Legislature to change laws, involving higher education which would have meant that Roane State couldn't come into Oak Ridge and so we sent a group to Nashville to try to talk, speak to the members of both the house and senate.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Not to let that ever go through and it didn't go through.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So then Roane State eventually, with all this building revised, we were tremendously, Roane State moved from Pellissippi back into Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was a great day for us.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But it wasn't enough really, Roane State got the parking lots overfilled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was more than anticipated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But there wasn't any room to expand at that location or anything like that.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh, that’s right. That’s right.
MR. MCDANIEL: At all.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So then over the years what happened, Roane State itself started looking for its management, looking for new land and they, they chose the land that is its on now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was going be another shopping area. They call it the Battle of the Mall Wars.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laugh)
MR. SCHAPPEL: At that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. I remember that.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, they chose to build where they are, and we were as happy as could be. Our deed to the Nautilus Building, we had signed it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: And the Committee of 50 did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh wow!
MR. SCHAPPEL: And it was burned. We burned it at a special meeting.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was about it. Roane State has gotten there and is flourished. It now had a separate committee on the sign. ORICL, Oak Ridge citizens were hiring, Institute for Continued Learning. And that is going great guns now too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Then of course, Roane State found that they needed more land and more people and were building and that’s going on now too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure is. Now, how did the Committee of 50, how did that start?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it was started by a representative, I forgot the name, the Tennessee representative. She was from Chattanooga and somehow or other she…
MR. MCDANIEL: Marilyn Lloyd?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Marilyn, that’s it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Marilyn Lloyd, yes.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Marilyn Lloyd started it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. So it wasn't just Oak Ridge? It wasn't just Oak Ridge was it, committee members?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh, yes it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: But it was to help determine issues that, not only on the local level but on the federal level as well I suppose?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I suppose that’s possible, but mainly it was on the local level.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you all have any other big issues you know like the Roane State one that you worked on?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well… (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Maybe had some success.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They did have other issues Roane State, the Committee of 50 had other issues. But I think they got tired of me talking about what was going on every time we had a meeting. Ours, Roane State, saving Roane State, was the biggest.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Issue that they, the Committee of 50 had.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And once that was fairly well accomplished, the Committee of 50 just faded away.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: I was in on it right to the end.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And after a while we didn't have any more meetings scheduled.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now when did it fade away? When was that about?
MR. SCHAPPEL: You got me on that one.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: Let me take a guess. Our last meetings were in the Comfort Inn?
MR. MCDANIEL: The old hotel, the Alexander Inn?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh no, no. Much later than that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Much later than that.
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was where the Bank of Oak Ridge is located on one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Corner.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Comfort Inn.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, we had our last meetings in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. SCHAPPEL: So if I knew when that was built then I would say…
MR. MCDANIEL: I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: It wasn't two years after.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see, I see. So it’s been 10 or 15 years or so.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Something like that. Well, what were some of the other things you were involved in?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I was president of the American Chemical Engineers for one year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah. We had some good meetings. We had people that [were from] the organization that distills moonshine. Well, it’s the favorite thing. It’s Tennessee.
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't know what that is.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, anyway their representatives came one day to a ACAE meeting [with] samples to taste of everything.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: And that became a real riot at the meeting.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet.
MR. SCHAPPEL: In fact, you couldn't do that again.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Did everybody get hammered? (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes! A lot of them did!
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, that was one my big projects, the entertainment after the meeting was…
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh.
MR. SCHAPPEL: …was the big thing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So, what have you been doing since you retired, or since the…
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, then after that, when I retired, first thing I did was become an ombudsman for the state.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay and what does that mean?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well a young ombudsman was associated with nursing homes and the quality of nursing homes, treatment of people in them. And I had to take a test after I read the literature.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: To see if I passed or not.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And then I was given nursing homes to go to check to see if they were fulfilling their requirement on the Tennessee law. Some I got along pretty well with and one I did not get along with. Eventually, we got along pretty well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. SCHAPPEL: And they were subject to, at that time there was a committee would come from Nashville to investigate how the nursing home was doing, and how well they were conforming to Tennessee Law. There is a number I have forgotten, 1200 and something. They would go down. Everything ok, ok, not ok. And some of mine got along pretty well. One of them didn't but the second year they did a lot better. Eventually, the last one I had was the one in not Emory Valley, but near Emory Valley, near where Green Peace is too.
MR. MCDANIEL: NHC?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, NHC.
MR. MCDANIEL: NHC, okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I had that for several years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. SCHAPPEL: That was where, it was from there I retired.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I decided when I hit 90, it was time to quit it.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They really weren't glad to see me go.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs)
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was pretty rough to start off with.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Little by little it became fine and we had a good relationship then.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well good, good.
MR. SCHAPPEL: So that was one thing I did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I've retained part of the job. There is a single state law that has arrangements where a chancery court can take an old person, penniless old person. They can put them in the nursing home, pay the nursing home to take care of that person.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I had two at the most, but I just have one now. It’s at Lake City. I have to go to Lake City.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Appear once a month just to check things out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Just to make sure that everyone is being treated fair.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The program is under a State Conservator.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. I see, I see.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I still go.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The other thing I did, I was asked to host on the train, the Southern Appalachian Railroad Museum train.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: The Secret City.
MR. MCDANIEL: The Secret City train?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And so I've been doing that for about 3 years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Have you?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Learned a lot about the K-25 that I didn't know about, even though I worked there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you said your wife had passed away.
MR. SCHAPPEL: She passed away.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. SCHAPPEL: She passed away when she was 70.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHAPPEL: It was ‘96.
MR. MCDANIEL: ’96. Okay. And obviously you are active. You go to ORICL, you do ORICL classes.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Right, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What are your impressions of ORICL?
MR. SCHAPPEL: Wonderful! Something wonderful. Some of the stuff that’s taught, bringing outside people in, it’s wonderful to learn about it even though sometimes you will never retain it, you need it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But you still know what’s going on, what’s the latest going on in scientific work.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: And political work, newspaper work. We had [the Knoxville] News Sentinel talk to us one time. It’s fine and I have had one woman ask, one woman who worked for the hospital she liked [for] her father [to] get into something like this. So she asked me to give her some pointers on how to get started and I did that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: But I don't know what ever happened there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well, is there anything else you want to talk about? Anything else that I should ask about?
MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I think I have overdone it.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) No, not at all, not at all. You have been involved in some interesting things in your life in Oak Ridge.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, Oak Ridge is a wonderful place to live. People are wonderful.
And on top of that, you’re in on the ground floor of a burgeoning city that is coming to manhood.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. SCHAPPEL: Or to adulthood. There’s a lot of history that you can learn about because Tennesseans are not secretive on what they've done in the past.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. SCHAPPEL: They will tell you, if they can. I don't think I have much of a Northern accent left, but maybe a little bit. I think if they were suspicious of a Northern accent, there not suspicious of me anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Not much, not much. Alright. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us, I appreciate it.
MR. SCHAPPEL: I hope I didn't break the camera.
MR. MCDANIEL: No, no. [It’s] still working, still working.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: This transcript has been edited at Mr. Schappel’s request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]
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| Rating | |
| Title | Schappel, Richard (Bert) |
| Description | Oral History of Richard (Bert) Schappel, Interviewed by Keith McDaniel, May 8, 2013 |
| Audio Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Audio/COROH%20-%20SCHAPPEL,%20RICHARD%20(BERT).mp3 |
| Video Link | http://www.osti.gov/coroh_video/media/Schappel_Richard |
| Transcript Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Schappel_Bert/Schappel_Final.doc |
| Image Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Schappel_Bert/Schappel_Bert.jpg |
| Collection Name | COROH |
| Interviewee | Schappel, Richard (Bert) |
| Interviewer | McDaniel, Keith |
| Type | video |
| Language | English |
| Subject | Atomic Bomb; History; Oak Ridge (Tenn.); World War II; X-10; Y-12; |
| People | Taylor, Ellison; |
| Places | Arkansas Ordinance Plant; Garden Apartments; Maryville College; Michigan State University; New York University; Oak Ridge Nursery School; Southern Appalachian Railroad Museum; St. Mary's Catholic Church; St. Mary's Catholic Church Elementary School; Tennessee Technological University; Tennessee Wesleyan; University of Tennessee; University of Texas; |
| Organizations/Programs | American Chemical Engineers Society; American Red Cross Swimming; Committee of 50; Flowing Women; Matheson Alcolay Corporation; Meals on Wheels; Oak Ridge Chorus; Oak Ridge Institute for Continued Learning (ORICL); Phillips Petroleum Company; Southeastern American Swimming Association; Westridge Corporation; |
| Notes | Transcript edited at Mr. Schappel's request |
| Date of Original | 2013 |
| Format | flv, doc, jpg, mp3 |
| Length | 49 minutes |
| File Size | 134 MB |
| Source | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Location of Original | Oak Ridge Public Library |
| Rights | Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge, Oak Ridge, TN 37830 Disclaimer: "This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government. Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof, nor any of their employees, makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States Government or any agency thereof." The materials in this collection are in the public domain and may be reproduced without the written permission of either the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History o |
| Contact Information | For more information or if you are interested in providing an oral history, contact: The Center for Oak Ridge Oral History, Oak Ridge Public Library, 1401 Oak Ridge Turnpike, 865-425-3455. |
| Identifier | SCHR |
| Creator | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Contributors | McNeilly, Kathy; Stooksbury, Susie; McDaniel, Keith; Reed, Jordan |
| Searchable Text | ORAL HISTORY OF RICHARD (BERT) SCHAPPEL Interviewed by Keith McDaniel May 8, 2013 MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is May 8, 2013, and I am in the home of Richard Schappel, but you go by the name Bert Schappel. MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. MR. SCHAPPEL: You're welcome. MR. MCDANIEL: Let’s talk a little bit, let’s go back to the very beginning of you. So tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family. MR. SCHAPPEL: I was born in Brooklyn, New York, in 1922. My family, from the time I was 5-years-old, decided they wanted to move out in the suburbs and we moved to a community called Mahwah, New Jersey. MR. MCDANIEL: Called what? MR. SCHAPPEL: Mahwah, New Jersey. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: New Jersey, I lived there until I was 20 years old. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Now what year were you born? MR. SCHAPPEL: 1922. MR. MCDANIEL: 1922. So did you have brothers and sisters? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, I have a younger brother and a younger sister. MR. MCDANIEL: And what did your father do? MR. SCHAPPEL: My father was an accountant. MR. MCDANIEL: Alright, so where did you go to school? MR. SCHAPPEL: This is grammar school, the university or what? MR. MCDANIEL: Well, up through high school where did you go to high school? MR. SCHAPPEL: I went to high school in the neighboring town called Ramsey, New Jersey, three miles away. When I graduated, I got a job in New York as a courier and went to New York University at night, which is very slow at getting through to a degree. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And I did that from 1938 to 1942. I was taking chemistry. A neighbor who had just gotten a job as the head of a lab in a war factory just north of Little Rock, Arkansas, asked my parents if they'd let me go work for him. And I thought, “Why is he asking them what I can do?” But I went to work for him. MR. MCDANIEL: In Arkansas? MR. SCHAPPEL: The town was called Jacksonville, Arkansas. And now it’s an airfield. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? I guess that was a big change for a city boy though, wasn't it? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, Mahwah was a commuter community, not a country community. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But close to it. MR. MCDANIEL: So, this was war work, is that correct? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so tell me a little bit about it. What was the company? What did you do and what were they doing? MR. SCHAPPEL: The company was contracted through the Federal Government and called Ford, Bacon, and Davis, the plant was called the Arkansas Ordinance Plant. And we made explosives for the Federal Government for shells. MR. MCDANIEL: And you had a background in chemistry so is what you did, you did chemistry work there? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, I did the chemistry work and they hired a bunch of high school kids to work on procedures and I thought I was going to do that. In no time at all, they had things that required more knowledge of chemistry than high school kids would have and I got a title of Special Analyst, or something like that. MR. MCDANIEL: But you had not finished your degree yet, is that correct? MR. SCHAPPEL: I had about 2 years more to go, 2 to 2 1/2 years more to go. MR. MCDANIEL: So you did that from, what years did you say? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it was '43, but it was only for about 9 months. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: And the boss called me in one day and said, “You’re not going to get deferment. I advise you to go to finish your education if you can, before you get drafted. So I did two things. I enlisted in the enlisted Reserve Corp. In the fall of '43, I went to the University of Texas, which I felt that I could afford. All along I had been paying for my education. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: That was why when I was going to NYU. It was slow business and I could afford that because I didn't make much money. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. MR. SCHAPPEL: So I went to the University of Texas and the Enlisted Reserve Corps was called up while I was in my first term at the University of Texas. So I got called up and went into the Army and I went to what was known as Army Specialized Training Corp, ASTC. And there from after going through basic training in a community called Tyler, Texas, I was transferred to Michigan State and I was there for a little over a half a year when they abandoned the ASTC program. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we all wondered what was going to happen to us. Then they marched us out into an open, snow covered field, and there were railroad coaches there at the end. They just said, “Orders in.” We got in and took off, but we didn't know where we were going to go. MR. MCDANIEL: Now when was this? MR. SCHAPPEL: It was the January '43. MR. MCDANIEL: January '43. Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Thought I got the dates straightened out here. All this happened in ’42, and this first thing happened in '43. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. So in January of '43, they put you on a train in Michigan. MR. SCHAPPEL: In Michigan. MR. MCDANIEL: And you didn't know where you were going? MR. SCHAPPEL: We didn't know where we were going. The only thing, it became obvious to me, I could smell when we went through the Chicago stockyards. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: I knew we were going west. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we went to a camp, an Army camp in Wisconsin and I was in the 76th division. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And I was there in the division for almost a year when we were sent overseas. MR. MCDANIEL: Was this just regular Army at that point? MR. SCHAPPEL: Infantry. MR. MCDANIEL: Infantry. Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: They wanted bodies at that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So you were there about a year and then you got sent overseas? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, we went overseas from, it was called Camp McCoy. It’s now called Fort McCoy. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Which means it’s a permanent installation. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So when did you leave to go overseas, and where did you go? MR. SCHAPPEL: My port of evacuation was Boston. We left Thanksgiving Day of '43, and went to England. And then from England, we were shipped across to France and we took, probably a long trip because I kept hearing about the Bulge. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But we weren't moving very fast, but we did get to the Bulge. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? MR. SCHAPPEL: We were in it, we were committed to back up the 17th Airborne, which was going on the offensive trying to relieve Bastogne and troops there. Bastogne was relieved before we got committed. The 17th Airborne was told they weren't needed either and so we were changed and we went to another sector of the line in Luxemburg. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And from there we went into the Siegfried line and fought our way through to south of Berlin and the war was over then. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. Alright. MR. SCHAPPEL: We were training to learn how to storm the beaches of Japan like many other divisions were at that time, when one of the brass got up and said, "You guys can all go home!" I thought, “What is he talking about? We're going to go to Japan,” and he said, "Japan has surrendered." Well, it was all due to the atomic bomb that we dropped on two cities in Japan and the atomic bomb was made in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Where is that? That wasn't true, the bomb was not made in Oak Ridge. The material for the bomb was made in Oak Ridge, but not the bomb. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. MR. SCHAPPEL: But that is when I learned about Tennessee. MR. MCDANIEL: That is when you first heard of Oak Ridge? MR. SCHAPPEL: That’s right. MR. MCDANIEL: So you finished up your service? MR. SCHAPPEL: I went back to the University of Texas to finish up because I had not. I cherish the moment that I made that decision because my allegiance to the University of Texas is great. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And Tennessee is second but I graduated from the University of Texas. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So, as long as you say UT we are in good shape? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: We both are orange and white. MR. MCDANIEL: Yep, both UT. So when you finished, you finished and got your degree in chemistry. MR. SCHAPPEL: In chemical engineering. MR. MCDANIEL: Chemical engineering. Did you go on to work on a masters, or did you go to work? MR. SCHAPPEL: I did when I came here. MR. MCDANIEL: So when you finished at Texas, what did you do? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I went to work for Phillips Petroleum Company, and I went to work for the Mathieson Alkali Corporation. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: A friend of mine who is, well, he wasn't a friend, he was someone I knew, he offered me a job so I went to Mathieson Alkali and I spent time in Houston, Texas, and then in Lake Charles, Louisiana, and it was from there that I applied for work in Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Now what kind of work were you doing in Houston? MR. SCHAPPEL: It was all chemical engineering. It started off with fertilizer and sulfuric acid. Well, basically that was it, they were experimenting different uses for bi-products in the manufacture of fertilizer. MR. MCDANIEL: I see, I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: We still did that in Mathieson Alkali. MR. MCDANIEL: So you found a job out at, in Oak Ridge, or you applied for a job in Oak Ridge. MR. SCHAPPEL: Right, and I was accepted to go to Y-12. MR. MCDANIEL: What year was that? MR. SCHAPPEL: ’54. MR. MCDANIEL: ‘54? MR. SCHAPPEL: ‘53 or ’54. MR. MCDANIEL: That’s okay. So, you got a job and you came to work at Y-12? MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me who hired you, and who did you work for, and what did you do their first? MR. SCHAPPEL: That is a good question. MR. MCDANIEL: [laughs] MR. SCHAPPEL: The guy that hired me, I know he is dead. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Eventually I worked for, my memory fails me here. Well, I worked for several places at Y-12. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: The Engineering Division and in Operations. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And back to Engineering. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And then I worked for Operations Analysis. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: At Y-12. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: From there I got transferred to K-25. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: To development. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Eventually to production analysis. MR. MCDANIEL: So when you say you got transferred to K-25 for Development, what that says to me is you worked on making the barrier better, more efficient. MR. SCHAPPEL: No, no. MR. MCDANIEL: You didn't? MR. SCHAPPEL: Never even knew that. Never had anything to do with barrier except that it, of course, still a national secret. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Of course. MR. SCHAPPEL: We can't talk much about it. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. I understand. I understand. MR. SCHAPPEL: There were a lot of other things. There were many other things you could do, even at K-25, even though it alone is a single purpose. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: To separate U-235 from U-238. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But there were a lot of side operations. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, a lot of different things. They were experimenting, I imagine, too. MR. SCHAPPEL: Most definitely. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. Is that the kind of work you did at Y-12 research type things? MR. SCHAPPEL: No, it was production then. MR. MCDANIEL: Was it production then? MR. SCHAPPEL: And it is nearing support of production. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Developing new processes. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now, how long did you stay at K-25? MR. SCHAPPEL: Until I was 70, and I'm guessing that was around ’92. MR. MCDANIEL: Until you retired? Is that when you retired from K-25? MR. SCHAPPEL: I had to. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: They didn't want me anymore. MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-oh. MR. SCHAPPEL: I think it might be a little later, I think it might be 70, I might've been 72. I hung on for quite a while. So that would be ’94, maybe. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, ‘94. Now what happened at, what were they doing at K-25, in general terms, after they shut down the cascade? Were they still doing development work? MR. SCHAPPEL: Some. They were also producing lower assay material for nuclear power reactors. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And submarine reactors. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I now know the centrifuge program was going after that as well, wasn't it? MR. SCHAPPEL: That was going, too. MR. MCDANIEL: That was going, too, so… MR. SCHAPPEL: I worked a little bit on that. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? Alright. So well, let’s go back to when you first came to Oak Ridge and you said that was ‘53 or ‘54. MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Now were you married, or were you single? MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I met my wife here. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. What were your impressions of Oak Ridge at that time? MR. SCHAPPEL: Sooty and dirty. MR. MCDANIEL: Really? MR. SCHAPPEL: There was smoke everywhere. You could cough it up sometimes if you were at the right place you coughed coal dust. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, because that is how the whole town was heated, wasn't it? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Speaking of coughing. MR. SCHAPPEL: I moved to a Garden Apartment with two other guys. But first I lived in a private home. These guys wanted me to go in and they had space and they needed someone to pay for another 1/3 of the rent. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And so I went there. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: I stayed there and my wife lived, at the time she was just my girlfriend, lived on the second floor and I lived on the third floor. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And I met her. We were interested both in the Oak Ridge Chorus. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Seeing her around a lot, got invited to parties they had at their apartment. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we had one beer bust at our apartment. MR. MCDANIEL: [laughs] MR. SCHAPPEL: That was a beer bust. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Anyway, I got to know her. Then we fell in love and so we were married. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was she working here in Oak Ridge? MR. SCHAPPEL: She was working at X-10. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was she? Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: She was secretary to Doctor Taylor who was the Head of the Chemistry Division. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay, alright. Now so when you got married did you, what did you do, did you move? Move to another apartment, or to a house? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, we moved to another apartment. At least we still had two Garden Apartments. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: We stayed there till we could buy a house. We bought a house in West Village. Then during that time there were efforts with land sales and land was offered through Home Management by DOE, in 1959 I think. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we got in with a group of buyers and we eventually became the West Ridge Corporation. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Right. Tell me a little bit about that. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, there were, I think there were, 69 people that subscribed to that. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we had to invest in a bond. And then prepay on a lot. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And got a contractor. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: He developed this area. MR. MCDANIEL: It is this area that we are sitting in, which is West Outer Drive, is that correct? MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. Right. Right. MR. MCDANIEL: That whole development was this area, wasn't it? MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it went, it started east of us this way. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And it went to the county line. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: Contractor A.E. Bost was used to design the layout for the West Ridge Corporation and we had officers, and lots were sold. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: After a while lots went in. There were lots to determine who would be first, second, third, or fourth. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: Accept your choice. MR. MCDANIEL: I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: And we came in fourth. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? MR. SCHAPPEL: At the time we had quite a few, quite a big choice. So we bought this lot we are on, and then we built a house. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, this was the corporation just for the development of this area and the lots? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Or did it have anything to do with building houses? MR. SCHAPPEL: No it didn't, you had to get your own. MR. MCDANIEL: It was just the development, it was available to, I guess, put in everything that needed to be here, right? MR. SCHAPPEL: Right. The city put in power. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And the developer put in the water. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And sewer. And so we built the house in 1964. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: And moved in in ’64. By that time our children were getting older. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: The first one was going to grammar school by that time. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: He had been in the Oak Ridge Nursery School and then we moved him to, he went to St. Mary’s. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Grammar school. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: The others went when it was time for them to go, they got on a bus in the front of the house here. Went to St. Mary’s also. MR. MCDANIEL: They all went to St. Mary’s. MR. SCHAPPEL: They all graduated from St. Mary’s. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Okay. Alright. MR. SCHAPPEL: The oldest went to Tennessee Tech, but he didn't like it. So he quit for a while. After trying to find his fortune working for one of the fast food places, he decided he would rather go back to school. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: He was getting close to his, time was running out on him. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure exactly. MR. SCHAPPEL: He went to Tennessee, the University of Tennessee. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. MR. SCHAPPEL: He became very interested in one professor and the professor’s philosophy on earning money. So he has followed that ever since, that philosophy. He is an entrepreneur in Texas, back in Texas. MR. MCDANIEL: Well, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: But he has established his own corporation. He has established his own corporation, and went broke and he's established a new one now. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand. MR. SCHAPPEL: And apparently he is doing alright. MR. MCDANIEL: So were you and your wife, and when the kids were coming up, involved in the community? What were some of the things you all were involved in? MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh yeah. We were much involved. My wife, oh she went in first, when she felt she could leave home. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: When the kids were all in school. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: First, she went on Meals on Wheels, but then she got interested in, she had always been interested in swimming. She got interested in competitive swimming. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: For years, she was the competitor in Swimmin’ Women. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: In fact, when she died, she was an officer in the Southeast American Swimming Association. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Is that right? So did she teach? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes, she taught swimming. MR. MCDANIEL: Competitive swimming and… MR. SCHAPPEL: She taught for the Red Cross. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did she? MR. SCHAPPEL: The Red Cross. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Swimming in the evenings. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. A couple of few days ago, I interviewed Betts Higgins. MR. SCHAPPEL: Higgins. Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, I interviewed her and her husband. She talked about the Red Cross swimming. MR. SCHAPPEL: When Oak Ridge swimming people felt they could organize a national swimming meet, Betts and I were in the, it was called the scoring room. We placed people in what heat and the record of what they've done. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: How well they've done. MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. MR. SCHAPPEL: There are people, there are a lot of things. Swimmers are Prima Donnas. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: And if they are good they want to be recognized as good. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. I understand. I understand. MR. SCHAPPEL: When the kids got older, I took basketball coaching. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: I did it only one [time]. MR. MCDANIEL: What did you [do]? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I helped out one year and then I did it one year and then I did it for half a year. MR. MCDANIEL: Is this for the Boys Club? MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I did it for St. Mary’s. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did you? Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Then I was a member of, I was elected a member of the West Ridge Corporation. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: Then I became the treasurer. I stayed with that right until the end, and I guess it was around 10 years I was the treasurer of the West Ridge Corporation. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: When all the lots were sold, we had to do something, we had been incorporated. The state had papers on us. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: They voted me to be the one to put the corporation to bed. I had to find out how you did that. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: I went to a lawyer in Knoxville. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: I was worried about all the records we had. We wanted to put them somewhere. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: After all those meetings and sales and near collapses and not collapses… MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: I felt we ought to put all our papers somewhere. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: The University of Tennessee took them. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did they? MR. SCHAPPEL: I was very grateful I drove the car with records all over the backseat, and the trunk and what not. And they took the whole thing. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, that’s great, that is great. Now, what other activities were you and your wife, were you all ever involved in politics? MR. SCHAPPEL: No, well, the other thing I got into, I joined the Committee of 50. MR. MCDANIEL: What was that? MR. SCHAPPEL: That was an organization to advise politicians on what we felt the people would want in the way of things in the developing city, what needed to be developed. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: I wasn't in the Committee of 50 long when I got to be chairman of a committee trying to save Roane State for Oak Ridge. The governor was into this. Two things happened: first there was the chance that Oak Ridge Roane State would be abandoned. It was in the West Mall Building, which doesn't exist anymore, and Cuyler Dunbar, the Roane State President at Harriman, left for another job. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: The state and the engineering, I mean the local educational circles wanted to do something about it. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: They decided they wanted to build another building for Oak Ridge, for Roane State. And there was a lot of work done by some people and at Carbide Engineering. All of which got rejected. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And eventually, the decision on the part of the governor and our present Secretary of Education… MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: …was to move it out on the Parkway. And we thought that was a terrible thing for Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: To lose the community college. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: There had been an effort to bring a college to Oak Ridge to develop one. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: It didn't do too well. The man they had elected to be president, he retired after a year. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And it started to fade away after that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: We resolved to, well the Committee of 50 made me the chairman of the committee to save the Oak Ridge outlook and from that we evolved into building a higher education center in Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: So, we worked from 1986 to 1990. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Our goals changed a little bit all the time. But it was obvious that we had to revise them and we had always had Roane State in mind. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But we had thought that we could with Roane State as the anchoring institution, we could really bring some other institutions in like Maryville College and Tennessee Wesleyan. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Into teach the third and fourth years. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, none of that worked too well, and Roane State didn't get along too very well with Tennessee Wesleyan management. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: So, in desperation we wrote a report and asked for the City Council and City Planning Commission to consider building a secondary higher education center. Tom Hill of the Oak Ridger helped us. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: All of this eventually changed and then the discussions taken place. One thing that happened is that… MR. MCDANIEL: But your concept was to build a building and let these other colleges come in? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, that was the whole idea. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: That was the idea. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But in the meantime, Roane State got moved into the Pellissippi campus. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Didn't work at all either. And so they were looking for a place to come back into Oak Ridge just automatically. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: At the time the Nautilus Building was ready. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And it was revised. In the meantime, there were moves in the State Legislature to change laws, involving higher education which would have meant that Roane State couldn't come into Oak Ridge and so we sent a group to Nashville to try to talk, speak to the members of both the house and senate. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Not to let that ever go through and it didn't go through. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: So then Roane State eventually, with all this building revised, we were tremendously, Roane State moved from Pellissippi back into Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: That was a great day for us. MR. MCDANIEL: I bet. MR. SCHAPPEL: But it wasn't enough really, Roane State got the parking lots overfilled. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: It was more than anticipated. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But there wasn't any room to expand at that location or anything like that. MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. MR. MCDANIEL: At all. MR. SCHAPPEL: So then over the years what happened, Roane State itself started looking for its management, looking for new land and they, they chose the land that is its on now. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: That was going be another shopping area. They call it the Battle of the Mall Wars. MR. MCDANIEL: (laugh) MR. SCHAPPEL: At that time. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. I remember that. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, they chose to build where they are, and we were as happy as could be. Our deed to the Nautilus Building, we had signed it. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: And the Committee of 50 did. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh wow! MR. SCHAPPEL: And it was burned. We burned it at a special meeting. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: That was about it. Roane State has gotten there and is flourished. It now had a separate committee on the sign. ORICL, Oak Ridge citizens were hiring, Institute for Continued Learning. And that is going great guns now too. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Then of course, Roane State found that they needed more land and more people and were building and that’s going on now too. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure is. Now, how did the Committee of 50, how did that start? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, it was started by a representative, I forgot the name, the Tennessee representative. She was from Chattanooga and somehow or other she… MR. MCDANIEL: Marilyn Lloyd? MR. SCHAPPEL: Marilyn, that’s it. MR. MCDANIEL: Marilyn Lloyd, yes. MR. SCHAPPEL: Marilyn Lloyd started it. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. So it wasn't just Oak Ridge? It wasn't just Oak Ridge was it, committee members? MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh, yes it was. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes it was. MR. MCDANIEL: But it was to help determine issues that, not only on the local level but on the federal level as well I suppose? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I suppose that’s possible, but mainly it was on the local level. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you all have any other big issues you know like the Roane State one that you worked on? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well… (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: Maybe had some success. MR. SCHAPPEL: They did have other issues Roane State, the Committee of 50 had other issues. But I think they got tired of me talking about what was going on every time we had a meeting. Ours, Roane State, saving Roane State, was the biggest. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Issue that they, the Committee of 50 had. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And once that was fairly well accomplished, the Committee of 50 just faded away. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: I was in on it right to the end. MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. MR. SCHAPPEL: And after a while we didn't have any more meetings scheduled. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. Now when did it fade away? When was that about? MR. SCHAPPEL: You got me on that one. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: Let me take a guess. Our last meetings were in the Comfort Inn? MR. MCDANIEL: The old hotel, the Alexander Inn? MR. SCHAPPEL: Oh no, no. Much later than that. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. Much later than that. MR. SCHAPPEL: It was where the Bank of Oak Ridge is located on one. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Corner. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Comfort Inn. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, we had our last meetings in there. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? MR. SCHAPPEL: So if I knew when that was built then I would say… MR. MCDANIEL: I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: It wasn't two years after. MR. MCDANIEL: I see, I see. So it’s been 10 or 15 years or so. MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Something like that. Well, what were some of the other things you were involved in? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, I was president of the American Chemical Engineers for one year. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah. We had some good meetings. We had people that [were from] the organization that distills moonshine. Well, it’s the favorite thing. It’s Tennessee. MR. MCDANIEL: I don't know what that is. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, anyway their representatives came one day to a ACAE meeting [with] samples to taste of everything. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: And that became a real riot at the meeting. MR. MCDANIEL: I bet. MR. SCHAPPEL: In fact, you couldn't do that again. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Did everybody get hammered? (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: Yes! A lot of them did! MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, that was one my big projects, the entertainment after the meeting was… MR. MCDANIEL: Oh. MR. SCHAPPEL: …was the big thing. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So, what have you been doing since you retired, or since the… MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, then after that, when I retired, first thing I did was become an ombudsman for the state. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay and what does that mean? MR. SCHAPPEL: Well a young ombudsman was associated with nursing homes and the quality of nursing homes, treatment of people in them. And I had to take a test after I read the literature. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: To see if I passed or not. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And then I was given nursing homes to go to check to see if they were fulfilling their requirement on the Tennessee law. Some I got along pretty well with and one I did not get along with. Eventually, we got along pretty well. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? MR. SCHAPPEL: And they were subject to, at that time there was a committee would come from Nashville to investigate how the nursing home was doing, and how well they were conforming to Tennessee Law. There is a number I have forgotten, 1200 and something. They would go down. Everything ok, ok, not ok. And some of mine got along pretty well. One of them didn't but the second year they did a lot better. Eventually, the last one I had was the one in not Emory Valley, but near Emory Valley, near where Green Peace is too. MR. MCDANIEL: NHC? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah, NHC. MR. MCDANIEL: NHC, okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: I had that for several years. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? MR. SCHAPPEL: That was where, it was from there I retired. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: I decided when I hit 90, it was time to quit it. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: They really weren't glad to see me go. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) MR. SCHAPPEL: It was pretty rough to start off with. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Little by little it became fine and we had a good relationship then. MR. MCDANIEL: Well good, good. MR. SCHAPPEL: So that was one thing I did. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: I've retained part of the job. There is a single state law that has arrangements where a chancery court can take an old person, penniless old person. They can put them in the nursing home, pay the nursing home to take care of that person. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: I had two at the most, but I just have one now. It’s at Lake City. I have to go to Lake City. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: Appear once a month just to check things out. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Just to make sure that everyone is being treated fair. MR. SCHAPPEL: The program is under a State Conservator. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. I see, I see. MR. SCHAPPEL: I still go. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: The other thing I did, I was asked to host on the train, the Southern Appalachian Railroad Museum train. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: The Secret City. MR. MCDANIEL: The Secret City train? MR. SCHAPPEL: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: And so I've been doing that for about 3 years. MR. MCDANIEL: Have you? MR. SCHAPPEL: Learned a lot about the K-25 that I didn't know about, even though I worked there. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, you said your wife had passed away. MR. SCHAPPEL: She passed away. MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. MR. SCHAPPEL: She passed away when she was 70. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. SCHAPPEL: It was ‘96. MR. MCDANIEL: ’96. Okay. And obviously you are active. You go to ORICL, you do ORICL classes. MR. SCHAPPEL: Right, yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: What are your impressions of ORICL? MR. SCHAPPEL: Wonderful! Something wonderful. Some of the stuff that’s taught, bringing outside people in, it’s wonderful to learn about it even though sometimes you will never retain it, you need it. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: But you still know what’s going on, what’s the latest going on in scientific work. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: And political work, newspaper work. We had [the Knoxville] News Sentinel talk to us one time. It’s fine and I have had one woman ask, one woman who worked for the hospital she liked [for] her father [to] get into something like this. So she asked me to give her some pointers on how to get started and I did that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: But I don't know what ever happened there. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well, is there anything else you want to talk about? Anything else that I should ask about? MR. SCHAPPEL: No, I think I have overdone it. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) No, not at all, not at all. You have been involved in some interesting things in your life in Oak Ridge. MR. SCHAPPEL: Well, Oak Ridge is a wonderful place to live. People are wonderful. And on top of that, you’re in on the ground floor of a burgeoning city that is coming to manhood. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. SCHAPPEL: Or to adulthood. There’s a lot of history that you can learn about because Tennesseans are not secretive on what they've done in the past. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. SCHAPPEL: They will tell you, if they can. I don't think I have much of a Northern accent left, but maybe a little bit. I think if they were suspicious of a Northern accent, there not suspicious of me anymore. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Not much, not much. Alright. Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us, I appreciate it. MR. SCHAPPEL: I hope I didn't break the camera. MR. MCDANIEL: No, no. [It’s] still working, still working. [End of Interview] [Editor’s Note: This transcript has been edited at Mr. Schappel’s request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.] |
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