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ORAL HISTORY OF RALPH KNISELEY
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
August 8, 2013
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is August 8, 2013 and I am at the home of Mr. Ralph Kniseley here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Kniseley, thank you for taking time to talk with us.
MR. KNISELEY: My pleasure.
MR. MCDANIEL: Spell your last name for me.
MR. KNISELEY: K-N-I-S-E-L-E-Y
MR. MCDANIEL: Because it's a little bit different spelling than one would think.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: How long have you been in Oak Ridge?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, I came in 1951. I left on two occasions and came back in 1994.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, let's start... let's go back to the beginning. Tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family.
MR. KNISELEY: I was born in a part of Pittsburgh called Swissvale in 1920. I was raised in Swissvale, went to school there, and went to the University of Pittsburgh for my college and medical school.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did your parents do?
MR. KNISELEY: My father worked for a company that did the switching signal apparatus for the railroads. It was in Swissvale.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now, that was during the Depression, so...
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was before the Depression and during it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Was it tough times?
MR. KNISELEY: It was tough times, but my father was never out of work. But he made very little during that time, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure... Did you have brothers and sisters?
MR. KNISELEY: Had two brothers and one sister.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. So, you graduated high school and decided to go to college.
MR. KNISELEY: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess... Was that always the plan? Or was there any question about whether you'd go to college?
MR. KNISELEY: I don't think there was any question. I had to figure out what you wanted to do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So what did you study?
MR. KNISELEY: I was a pre-medical student and during the summer I worked as an orderly at the Presbyterian Hospital while I was in college.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then once you graduated, you went on to medical school, is that correct?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Well, actually, I was admitted to medical school after two years and I got my bachelor's degree while I was in medical school after four.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: I graduated at the age of 23...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow.
MR. KNISELEY: ...which was pretty young...
MR. MCDANIEL: Pretty young.
MR. KNISELEY: You see, the war was on and they kept us in school for summers as well.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So once you got your medical degree, what did you do then?
MR. KNISELEY: I had an internship and then I had a deferment from the military to -- which they did for portions of the class so they would have people coming into the Army and then other people deferred to come in later.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: So, I went to the Mayo Clinic as a resident in pathology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have a specialty at that point?
MR. KNISELEY: Pathology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. Pathology, right...
MR. KNISELEY: And I really took that because I was a little too young to be a practicing doctor. I thought a little additional information on disease would be useful. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: So, for those of us who may or may not know, what is pathology?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it's the study of human tissues and surgical specimens as well as the laboratory work for blood work and urine and so on.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. KNISELEY: So, that's the clinical pathology and then there's the anatomic pathology where autopsies are performed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you're 23, 24, and you're doing pathology at the Mayo Clinic. Were you married at the time?
MR. KNISELEY: No.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. So what were your plans? Did you expect to have to go into the military?
MR. KNISELEY: Yes. Eighteen months of residency then I was on active duty. I was pathologist for a large hospital in Fort Dix and then Valley Forge General Hospital which had 3,000 patients.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow!
MR. KNISELEY: I was director of the laboratory at age (laughs) 26 or so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where is Fort Dix?
MR. KNISELEY: Fort Dix is in New Jersey.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, New Jersey... And that was military hospital, I guess, for military families?
MR. KNISELEY: They both were military hospitals. I served my two years and was discharged. Went back to finish the residency at the Mayo Clinic.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went back to the Mayo Clinic?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And this was about... late ‘40s I guess?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I went back in '48, and finished in '49.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, all right… So in '49, you finished your residency at the Mayo Clinic. What did you do then?
MR. KNISELEY: Then I was the pathologist for the Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque, New Mexico, for two years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. And was that just a general...? Was that a hospital?
MR. KNISELEY: No, it was a clinic like the Mayo Clinic, only small. (laughs) It's now a large clinic. But...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, I understand. And you did that for two years in New Mexico.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Then my long-term friend Paul Spray recruited me to come to Oak Ridge in 1951.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. How did you know Dr. Spray?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, we were Boy Scouts together and we went to college together and we wound up at the same hospital in the Army and we were also at the Mayo Clinic together.
MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Y'all grew up together didn't you?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah! I was his best man.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you? (laughs) So, in '51 you decided to move to Oak Ridge.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. We moved to Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were you married at this point?
MR. KNISELEY: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have any children then?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I had two.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you meet your wife?
MR. KNISELEY: In the Army. She was a social worker -- Red Cross social worker.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So, you moved to Oak Ridge. Tell me, what did you do? Did you set up...? Did you go into private practice? Or...?
MR. KNISELEY: No, I was the pathologist for the Oak Ridge Hospital half time and O-R-I-N-S, Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies medical division which had just opened two years before.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. So you got here early in the days of ORINS.
MR. KNISELEY: Pardon?
MR. MCDANIEL: You got here early in the days of ORINS.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you were doing pathology at the hospital and pathology at ORINS.
MR. KNISELEY: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it...? What did you expect? I mean, had you ever been to Oak Ridge before? Did you know very much about it?
MR. KNISELEY: I came to visit on Paul's invitation and thought it would be an interesting proposition.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So tell me about the early days of the hospital. I mean, you know, it wasn't too early, but it was fairly early.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Well, it was the old Army hospital. It was before the present structure.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. KNISELEY: They had a general hospital with pediatrics and obstetrics. Usual small general hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it still run by the Army at that point?
MR. KNISELEY: No. It was run by a company.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. KNISELEY: Under contract to the government.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who ran the hospital? Who were the folks that ran things there?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, there were... Who ran it?
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, who was the administrator or the chief medical officer?
MR. KNISELEY: Carl Jeffries was the administrator. I'm amazed I remember his name! (Laughs) And the physicians included some who were actually assigned here during the war.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you were the chief pathologist, is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: The only one. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: The only pathologist. (laughs) So I imagine it kept you pretty busy.
MR. KNISELEY: I had time for extracurricular activities. Oak Ridge was great for that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... We'll talk about that in just a little bit. I want to get into that. So, you're at the hospital half time and then you worked at ORINS half time.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that work like?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was pathology -- clinical pathology and anatomic pathology.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: We had patients referred in from all over the South for diagnostic and therapeutic trials.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I would imagine that that would be a difficult job because, from what I understand, most of the patients who came there were pretty, I mean, their disease was pretty advanced, wasn't it?
MR. KNISELEY: I think that, in general, that was true. But there was a wide range.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there things with the whole nuclear medicine, you know -- really the early stages of nuclear medicine -- were there things that you learned as a pathologist from your work there?
MR. KNISELEY: Yes. You see, radioisotopes were a new thing. There weren't any before the war. And actually they made a variety of them at the ... at ORNL Lab. So we had to deal with new agents both for diagnosis and for treatment and it was experimental. But fortunately the director of the medical division was Gould Andrews. He was extremely meticulous in terms of patient safety and concerns about their welfare so they got the best treatment that was possible for their disease at that time.
MR. MCDANIEL: At that time... At that point in their disease, I would imagine. Now, there weren't too many physicians that worked at ORINS were there? (coughs) Excuse me. From what I understand there were, you know, half a dozen or so?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, probably half a dozen. Couple clinicians, radiologists...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, are some of those still around?
MR. KNISELEY: During the… they came later -- the ones that are around. Actually, ORINS became quite a center for advancing knowledge in radioisotopes to physicians. We gave courses. I was the... later on I was director of the ... I was chief of the clinical research and the... and training. We gave courses -- doctors came from all around the country to learn how to handle nuclear medicine. We also had international guests. Dr. Karl Hubner from Germany is the one that I had in mind. He's retired from the University of Tennessee. He was a nuclear physician. I guess he's the only survivor (laughs) of the medical... As you well know, I'm 92...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right. No, I didn't know you were 92.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you don't look it.
MR. KNISELEY: There's one other survivor. Dr. Nazareth Gengozian who was an immunologist. Very wonderful scientist.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So you were involved in, as you said, you became the director of the training program that trained doctors.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: What were you -- fundamentally what were you teaching them to do?
MR. KNISELEY: How to handle radioisotopes and how to use them in diagnosis and...
MR. MCDANIEL: And treatment.
MR. KNISELEY: And treatment. And, at one point, I went to Japan as a visiting professor. I gave the first course in nuclear medicine at the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: That was in 1962.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. Wow. So you stayed at ORINS until it dissolved, is that correct?
MR. KNISELEY: No. I didn't.
MR. MCDANIEL: So tell me -- give me your timeline.
MR. KNISELEY: Ok, I had a hiatus of four years in 1955 to '59, when I was in California as a pathologist with a friend of mine. I was a consultant to the Lawrence Laboratory while I was there and then when I came back, I came back to this new position. And then I... During that period after I came back we were involved in training and I was nominated by the Board of Pathology to represent them in a new Board of Nuclear Medicine so I was one of the original board members.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Of... What was it? What was the board called?
MR. KNISELEY: Nuclear Medicine...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. KNISELEY: The Board of Nuclear Medicine. You see, there were boards in surgery and medicine and pathology and dermatology...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh! A medical board.
MR. KNISELEY: This was a new one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok, all right. So you were one of the first. One of the first on that board?
MR. KNISELEY: I was one of the founders.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, one of the founders. So when people say they're board certified, that's what that means.
MR. KNISELEY: That's right. That means they have to take exams, they have to go through training periods and take exams ... and pass them (laughs).
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. (laughs) So, you came back to Oak Ridge after your time in California. You came back to this new position as the head of the training program. And, so what did you do...? How long did you do that? How long did that last?
MR. KNISELEY: I did that from 1959 to 1973.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. KNISELEY: And at that point, I was asked to be the -- well, I applied, really -- the Director of the Life Sciences Program at the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria.
MR. MCDANIEL: Let me... I want to get to that but let me ask you: Now, was... did ORINS still operate or did it, had it become a part of the Oak Ridge Associated Universities?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, they changed the name, but that's all it was, was a name change, as far as I know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But it became Oak Ridge Associated Universities.
MR. KNISELEY: And the medical division, of course.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So you stayed there until '73, and you went to Vienna. Tell me about that. Tell me what you did there.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was an office job where we...
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sorry. Could you hold those papers down? The papers? That's right. Thank you.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was a diplomats job, really.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh...
MR. KNISELEY: Because I spent time at the ambassador's place. But, it was really administrative work. We arranged conferences to spread the word about nuclear medicine. Internationally, you know. Of course, it was a great experience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I've interviewed several folks who went there for an amount of time, talked about living there for a year or two. They really enjoyed it. So, how long were you there?
MR. KNISELEY: Two years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Two years. And then did you come back to Oak Ridge at that point?
MR. KNISELEY: No. 1975, I indulged myself in a... maybe a psychiatric fantasy. (laughter)
MR. MCDANIEL: I can't wait to hear.
MR. KNISELEY: I was married to my present wife, Joan Silva, in Vienna.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Ok.
MR. KNISELEY: She had nurses' training. And we decided that I would have a practice in medicine in a country... I'd be a country doctor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: And we moved to a small town in Idaho and opened a practice with some other -- I was with another doctor. There were about four or five doctors in this small town.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: And I practiced medicine there. Delivered babies and did surgery, some.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So how long did you stay there?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, we came back ... When I was 68, I closed the practice but I continued to work in medicine. I drove into Boise, which is a big city, and I was in a walk-in clinic. I did 12 hour shifts there three days a week.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So, what made you decide to be a country doctor in Idaho?
MR. KNISELEY: After 30 years in academic medicine? (laughs) Well, I guess it was a long-held fantasy. When I went into medical school I thought I'd be a doctor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: And then I got sidetracked because of circumstances. And I was challenged by what I did do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh. Sure.
MR. KNISELEY: And after having left Oak Ridge and sort of finished a big chapter we thought we'd do that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how old were you when you did that?
MR. KNISELEY: In 1975, I would have been 54.
MR. MCDANIEL: You'd have been 54...
MR. KNISELEY: Going on 55...
MR. MCDANIEL: My age. You would have been my age.
MR. KNISELEY: And when I came back to Oak Ridge in '94, I worked in the clinics here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. KNISELEY: Until I was 80.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you decided that was something you really always wanted to do and it was time to do it.
MR. KNISELEY: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you knew you had another 20 years or so of work, you know, left in you, you know, 15 to 20 years and you had enough time to establish yourself and accomplish some things.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's pretty amazing. Was it everything you thought it would be?
MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah. It was, of course, difficult because you had to take your turn on the emergency room for this small hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. KNISELEY: And you had emergencies -- fortunately we were only an hour from a big hospital and I could refer anything that was... I didn't have to do stuff that was beyond me. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. So you said you moved back to Oak Ridge in '96?
MR. KNISELEY: '94...
MR. MCDANIEL: '94. You were 74 then. So you came back and you did... What did you do?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, I worked at the community clinic and the walk-in clinic.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where was that?
MR. KNISELEY: The community clinic is where... It's right across from the hospital.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. KNISELEY: It was opened, really, to try to decompress the emergency room.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see...
MR. KNISELEY: I think it was run by this company... I've forgotten the name of it...
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MR. KNISELEY: And then I worked at one of the walk-in clinics part-time.
MR. MCDANIEL: And how long did you do that?
MR. KNISELEY: Sorry?
MR. MCDANIEL: How long did you do that?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, 'til I was 80. That was 2000.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok... So, 12-13 years you've been officially retired.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: No work.
MR. KNISELEY: Right. But I keep busy.
MR. MCDANIEL: You keep busy, I'm sure. Well, let's go back... Let's go back to, you know, the early days of Oak Ridge when you moved here. You started to talk a little earlier about some of the extracurricular activities in Oak Ridge. Tell me about your life, outside of work.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, we... our family grew to be five children...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok...
MR. KNISELEY: ... four girls and a boy. And I was interested in local activities. I became board member of the mental health clinic and a board member and, actually at a time, I was president of the board of the Unitarian Church. There was a time when I was also the choir director.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Ok.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Then later on I was on the board of Planned Parenthood. Then I became a member of the National Board of Planned Parenthood which was an interesting experience. And I was involved in the early desegregation protests. I carried a picket sign in front of Davis Brothers Cafeteria.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. And things like that.
MR. MCDANIEL: I know there were some groups, you know, in town that kind of ...kind of did those things -- that kind of organized those things. I've interviewed a couple of folks who were involved in that.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, Fran Silver used to drive us down to the cafeteria in her car so we wouldn't be vandalized.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. KNISELEY: She was... I understand you interviewed Fran.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, yes I did... I certainly did. I interviewed the Peelles -- Bob and Elizabeth Peelle. I know they were involved in some of that work as well.
MR. KNISELEY: Yes, oh, yes. Elizabeth was active...
MR. MCDANIEL: What were some of the other activities? Were you involved in other clubs or recreation?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I was also active in the Playhouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you? Did you act?
MR. KNISELEY: Huh?
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you act?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I did some acting and singing. I was the Street Singer in The Threepenny Opera which was my ... the famous song, "Mack the Knife."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, that's what I... that was mine to sing. It was a great production.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah! Was that Paul Ebert directed that?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, Paul Ebert directed that.
MR. MCDANIEL: When was that? About when was that?
MR. KNISELEY: What year?
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MR. KNISELEY: 1963, I think, would be a guess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now were they in the new... in the Center Theatre then? Were they in the theatre where they are now?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. I know... I think they moved in there in the late '50s, early '60s.
MR. KNISELEY: That was a great activity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Oh, I was involved in there for years myself. My wife and I both, we actually met at the Playhouse.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Joan, my wife, was very active in the Playhouse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. KNISELEY: She must have done 15 or more plays. She actually produced and directed and was in a studio production.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really! Oh, wow!
MR. KNISELEY: That was about 1972.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Now, were you involved...? I notice behind you and to the side that we don't see on camera some artwork. Were you in...?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I was with the Art Center in the early '50s, when it was first formed. I started painting in medical school. I've painted about 2,000 paintings.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. KNISELEY: I have 50 of them on permanent display at the library of the University of Pittsburgh's medical school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Wow!
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Very proud of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, are you a 'famous' painter?
MR. KNISELEY: No... (laughs) not famous.
MR. MCDANIEL: You're just prolific, over the years.
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I just kept painting wherever I was. I painted when I was in Vienna, I painted when I was in medical school.
MR. MCDANIEL: What style would you call your paintings?
MR. KNISELEY: I don’t have a style... (laughs) I like to try different things. I do figurative paintings, do landscapes, do abstracts. I just like to ... And if something is bothering me I might do... I do protest paintings, too. I've done some that had to do with injustices.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: Did one of old people in the nursing home last year when my wife was in there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... Have you had shows of your paintings in Oak Ridge?
MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yes. I had shows at the Art Center -- been a number of years back. But I have a couple in the present show.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, do you?
MR. KNISELEY: Then they have an annual open show and I always submit to that. I've had things in it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So, why did you end up, after your country doctor practice, why did you end up coming back to Oak Ridge?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was sort of home. We raised our kids here. It was... We had good friends here. Just seemed the thing to do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... What has... Because you've been here off and on -- when you moved back after being gone 20... 20-something years...
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, about 20...
MR. MCDANIEL: How was Oak Ridge different? Or was it?
MR. KNISELEY: That's a good question. Well, I don't think the population was greatly increased but there was an awful lot more going on, you know. Whole lot of companies around... not that I had anything to do with it... a different feeling. But the things that I treasured like the Arts Center was very active. Music Association was very active, I enjoyed that -- 'til my hearing got bad. (chuckles)
MR. MCDANIEL: It's... Oak Ridge has always had a cultural bent. You know, there has always been music and theatre and art.
MR. KNISELEY: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it's pretty well stayed that way, hasn't it?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, it's been healthy. I think each year the chamber concert gets a little thinner because we're dying off. (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly...
MR. KNISELEY: It's a select audience.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, as a physician, Oak Ridge -- I want to get your impressions about Oak Ridge, its medical services, because it's really increased. I mean, it's become kind of a regional center, hasn't it?
MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah. It's a totally different place than when I left. I think its high quality and quite diverse. I've taken advantage of some of it. I'm wearing a pacemaker! (laughs) Been in for several things... I think we're very lucky to have this quality of medical care here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And also Oak Ridge... I mean, you know, there are a lot of people that are still here from the Manhattan Project days even though they're getting... there're becoming less of those, you know, every day...
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: But, I mean, Oak Ridge, it does have a significant, you know, senior population.
MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, which is a... the services that are here in Oak Ridge keep people from having to go to Knoxville.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, they just put up a new nursing home. A big one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly... Well, are there any other things you'd like to talk about or chat about?
MR. KNISELEY: Well, I could go on and on, I guess... But... (laughs)
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, there's time, I've got tape. Whatever you want to talk about.
MR. KNISELEY: Is there anything...? I think we covered much of what was on my list of things to mention.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. I do want to ask you -- you didn't go into great detail about this. You kind of alluded to the fact that you kind of had a -- You worked with the desegregation. You've done protest paintings. You were active in organizations that questioned the status quo to a certain degree. What...? Is that something that you've kind of always had? Is that a kind of temperament, or mentality, that you've always had, or did that develop out of something?
MR. KNISELEY: That's a good question and I don't know the answer. I was raised in a community where there were very few Afro-Americans, but I guess my parents were careful not to be prejudiced which was a gift to me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. KNISELEY: I guess it was just something that I acquired as I went along. We had only one Afro-American in our medical school class of 82.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. KNISELEY: And that's changed, of course, a good deal. There were only two women in that class -- one of them killed herself... because she was having trouble. But now ... the class is now doubled what it was when I was in school and they have... its women...
MR. MCDANIEL: Reflects more the population.
MR. KNISELEY: Very diverse.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you find in Oak Ridge a community of like-minded folks like yourself?
MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yes, oh yes!
MR. MCDANIEL: And why do you think that was?
MR. KNISELEY: One of the sources, of course, was the Unitarian Church which was the ... I don't know what to describe it... It was certainly broad-based enough it was... It was interesting, even the hospital was segregated when I came here.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Remind me again what was the first year you came to Oak Ridge the first time?
MR. KNISELEY: 1951.
MR. MCDANIEL: '51. Ok.
MR. KNISELEY: Of course, everything was segregated.
MR. MCDANIEL: Everything was segregated... yeah, sure...
MR. KNISELEY: Schools, swimming pools, laundromats.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. But those desegregation efforts didn't kind of get geared up until I guess the late '50s maybe? Early '60s?
MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. I think it was 1960 when we were picketing.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. KNISELEY: And then there were moves made to open the -- I don't know what years they were -- but the high school became integrated. And I think it became integrated along with the big thing that happened in Clinton.
MR. MCDANIEL: Actually, Oak Ridge integrated in '55, and Clinton integrated in fall of '56.
MR. KNISELEY: That was... I'd forgotten...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, the high school was integrated in '55, because I'm the fellow who made the movie, "The Clinton 12," the documentary. But Oak Ridge integrated in '55, because the government said, "You're gonna integrate." There was no question about it. It really was... the town was still run by the Federal Government. But the elementary schools in Oak Ridge, some of them didn't integrate until, oh, in the early '60s. It took a while for the whole school system to be integrated.
MR. KNISELEY: Well, the housing was so segregated that that had a bearing on where the grade school...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly! All right!
MR. KNISELEY: Ok!
MR. MCDANIEL: Are you done?
MR. KNISELEY: Are you done?
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm done! That's fine! Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
[End of Interview]
[Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mr. Kniseley’s request. The corresponding audio and video remain unchanged.]
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| Rating | |
| Title | Kniseley, Ralph |
| Description | Oral History of Ralph Kniseley, Interviewed by Keith McDaniel. August 8, 2013 |
| Audio Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Audio/COROH%20-%20KNISELEY,%20RALPH.mp3 |
| Video Link | http://www.osti.gov/coroh_video/media/Kniseley_Ralph |
| Transcript Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Kniseley_Ralph/Kniseley_Final.doc |
| Image Link | http://www.osti.gov/COROH/Transcripts_and_photos_%20JH/Kniseley_Ralph/Kniseley_Ralph.jpg |
| Collection Name | COROH |
| Interviewee | Kniseley, Ralph |
| Interviewer | McDaniel, Keith |
| Type | video |
| Language | English |
| Subject | Arts Community; Churches; Desegregation; Health; Oak Ridge (Tenn.); World War II; |
| Places | Methodist Medical Center; |
| Organizations/Programs | Oak Ridge Institute for Nuclear Studies (ORINS); Oak Ridge Playhouse; |
| Notes | Transcript edited at Mr. Kniseley's request |
| Date of Original | 2013 |
| Format | flv, doc, jpg, mp3 |
| Length | 40 minutes |
| File Size | 137 MB |
| Source | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Location of Original | Oak Ridge Public Library |
| Rights | Copy Right by the City of Oak Ridge, Oak Ridge, TN 37830 Disclaimer: "This report was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government. Neither the United States Government nor any agency thereof, nor any of their employees, makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise do not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States Government or any agency thereof. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States Government or any agency thereof." The materials in this collection are in the public domain and may be reproduced without the written permission of either the Center for Oak Ridge Oral History o |
| Contact Information | For more information or if you are interested in providing an oral history, contact: The Center for Oak Ridge Oral History, Oak Ridge Public Library, 1401 Oak Ridge Turnpike, 865-425-3455. |
| Identifier | KNIR |
| Creator | Center for Oak Ridge Oral History |
| Contributors | McNeilly, Kathy; Stooksbury, Susie; McDaniel, Keith; Reed, Jordan |
| Searchable Text | ORAL HISTORY OF RALPH KNISELEY Interviewed by Keith McDaniel August 8, 2013 MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is August 8, 2013 and I am at the home of Mr. Ralph Kniseley here in Oak Ridge. Mr. Kniseley, thank you for taking time to talk with us. MR. KNISELEY: My pleasure. MR. MCDANIEL: Spell your last name for me. MR. KNISELEY: K-N-I-S-E-L-E-Y MR. MCDANIEL: Because it's a little bit different spelling than one would think. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: How long have you been in Oak Ridge? MR. KNISELEY: Well, I came in 1951. I left on two occasions and came back in 1994. MR. MCDANIEL: Well, let's start... let's go back to the beginning. Tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family. MR. KNISELEY: I was born in a part of Pittsburgh called Swissvale in 1920. I was raised in Swissvale, went to school there, and went to the University of Pittsburgh for my college and medical school. MR. MCDANIEL: What did your parents do? MR. KNISELEY: My father worked for a company that did the switching signal apparatus for the railroads. It was in Swissvale. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now, that was during the Depression, so... MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was before the Depression and during it. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Was it tough times? MR. KNISELEY: It was tough times, but my father was never out of work. But he made very little during that time, of course. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure... Did you have brothers and sisters? MR. KNISELEY: Had two brothers and one sister. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. So, you graduated high school and decided to go to college. MR. KNISELEY: Right. MR. MCDANIEL: I guess... Was that always the plan? Or was there any question about whether you'd go to college? MR. KNISELEY: I don't think there was any question. I had to figure out what you wanted to do. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So what did you study? MR. KNISELEY: I was a pre-medical student and during the summer I worked as an orderly at the Presbyterian Hospital while I was in college. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: And then once you graduated, you went on to medical school, is that correct? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Well, actually, I was admitted to medical school after two years and I got my bachelor's degree while I was in medical school after four. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? MR. KNISELEY: I graduated at the age of 23... MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow. MR. KNISELEY: ...which was pretty young... MR. MCDANIEL: Pretty young. MR. KNISELEY: You see, the war was on and they kept us in school for summers as well. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So once you got your medical degree, what did you do then? MR. KNISELEY: I had an internship and then I had a deferment from the military to -- which they did for portions of the class so they would have people coming into the Army and then other people deferred to come in later. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: So, I went to the Mayo Clinic as a resident in pathology. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have a specialty at that point? MR. KNISELEY: Pathology. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. Pathology, right... MR. KNISELEY: And I really took that because I was a little too young to be a practicing doctor. I thought a little additional information on disease would be useful. (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: So, for those of us who may or may not know, what is pathology? MR. KNISELEY: Well, it's the study of human tissues and surgical specimens as well as the laboratory work for blood work and urine and so on. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... MR. KNISELEY: So, that's the clinical pathology and then there's the anatomic pathology where autopsies are performed. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you're 23, 24, and you're doing pathology at the Mayo Clinic. Were you married at the time? MR. KNISELEY: No. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. So what were your plans? Did you expect to have to go into the military? MR. KNISELEY: Yes. Eighteen months of residency then I was on active duty. I was pathologist for a large hospital in Fort Dix and then Valley Forge General Hospital which had 3,000 patients. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow! MR. KNISELEY: I was director of the laboratory at age (laughs) 26 or so. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, where is Fort Dix? MR. KNISELEY: Fort Dix is in New Jersey. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, New Jersey... And that was military hospital, I guess, for military families? MR. KNISELEY: They both were military hospitals. I served my two years and was discharged. Went back to finish the residency at the Mayo Clinic. MR. MCDANIEL: So, you went back to the Mayo Clinic? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: And this was about... late ‘40s I guess? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I went back in '48, and finished in '49. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok, all right… So in '49, you finished your residency at the Mayo Clinic. What did you do then? MR. KNISELEY: Then I was the pathologist for the Lovelace Clinic in Albuquerque, New Mexico, for two years. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. And was that just a general...? Was that a hospital? MR. KNISELEY: No, it was a clinic like the Mayo Clinic, only small. (laughs) It's now a large clinic. But... MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, I understand. And you did that for two years in New Mexico. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Then my long-term friend Paul Spray recruited me to come to Oak Ridge in 1951. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. How did you know Dr. Spray? MR. KNISELEY: Well, we were Boy Scouts together and we went to college together and we wound up at the same hospital in the Army and we were also at the Mayo Clinic together. MR. MCDANIEL: (laughs) Y'all grew up together didn't you? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah! I was his best man. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you? (laughs) So, in '51 you decided to move to Oak Ridge. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. We moved to Oak Ridge. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, were you married at this point? MR. KNISELEY: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you have any children then? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I had two. MR. MCDANIEL: Where did you meet your wife? MR. KNISELEY: In the Army. She was a social worker -- Red Cross social worker. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. So, you moved to Oak Ridge. Tell me, what did you do? Did you set up...? Did you go into private practice? Or...? MR. KNISELEY: No, I was the pathologist for the Oak Ridge Hospital half time and O-R-I-N-S, Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies medical division which had just opened two years before. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. So you got here early in the days of ORINS. MR. KNISELEY: Pardon? MR. MCDANIEL: You got here early in the days of ORINS. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So, you were doing pathology at the hospital and pathology at ORINS. MR. KNISELEY: Yes. MR. MCDANIEL: What was it...? What did you expect? I mean, had you ever been to Oak Ridge before? Did you know very much about it? MR. KNISELEY: I came to visit on Paul's invitation and thought it would be an interesting proposition. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So tell me about the early days of the hospital. I mean, you know, it wasn't too early, but it was fairly early. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Well, it was the old Army hospital. It was before the present structure. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. KNISELEY: They had a general hospital with pediatrics and obstetrics. Usual small general hospital. MR. MCDANIEL: Was it still run by the Army at that point? MR. KNISELEY: No. It was run by a company. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... MR. KNISELEY: Under contract to the government. MR. MCDANIEL: Who ran the hospital? Who were the folks that ran things there? MR. KNISELEY: Well, there were... Who ran it? MR. MCDANIEL: Well, who was the administrator or the chief medical officer? MR. KNISELEY: Carl Jeffries was the administrator. I'm amazed I remember his name! (Laughs) And the physicians included some who were actually assigned here during the war. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you were the chief pathologist, is that right? MR. KNISELEY: The only one. (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: The only pathologist. (laughs) So I imagine it kept you pretty busy. MR. KNISELEY: I had time for extracurricular activities. Oak Ridge was great for that. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... We'll talk about that in just a little bit. I want to get into that. So, you're at the hospital half time and then you worked at ORINS half time. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: What was that work like? MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was pathology -- clinical pathology and anatomic pathology. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: We had patients referred in from all over the South for diagnostic and therapeutic trials. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I would imagine that that would be a difficult job because, from what I understand, most of the patients who came there were pretty, I mean, their disease was pretty advanced, wasn't it? MR. KNISELEY: I think that, in general, that was true. But there was a wide range. MR. MCDANIEL: Were there things with the whole nuclear medicine, you know -- really the early stages of nuclear medicine -- were there things that you learned as a pathologist from your work there? MR. KNISELEY: Yes. You see, radioisotopes were a new thing. There weren't any before the war. And actually they made a variety of them at the ... at ORNL Lab. So we had to deal with new agents both for diagnosis and for treatment and it was experimental. But fortunately the director of the medical division was Gould Andrews. He was extremely meticulous in terms of patient safety and concerns about their welfare so they got the best treatment that was possible for their disease at that time. MR. MCDANIEL: At that time... At that point in their disease, I would imagine. Now, there weren't too many physicians that worked at ORINS were there? (coughs) Excuse me. From what I understand there were, you know, half a dozen or so? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, probably half a dozen. Couple clinicians, radiologists... MR. MCDANIEL: Now, are some of those still around? MR. KNISELEY: During the… they came later -- the ones that are around. Actually, ORINS became quite a center for advancing knowledge in radioisotopes to physicians. We gave courses. I was the... later on I was director of the ... I was chief of the clinical research and the... and training. We gave courses -- doctors came from all around the country to learn how to handle nuclear medicine. We also had international guests. Dr. Karl Hubner from Germany is the one that I had in mind. He's retired from the University of Tennessee. He was a nuclear physician. I guess he's the only survivor (laughs) of the medical... As you well know, I'm 92... MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right. No, I didn't know you were 92. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Well, you don't look it. MR. KNISELEY: There's one other survivor. Dr. Nazareth Gengozian who was an immunologist. Very wonderful scientist. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. So you were involved in, as you said, you became the director of the training program that trained doctors. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: What were you -- fundamentally what were you teaching them to do? MR. KNISELEY: How to handle radioisotopes and how to use them in diagnosis and... MR. MCDANIEL: And treatment. MR. KNISELEY: And treatment. And, at one point, I went to Japan as a visiting professor. I gave the first course in nuclear medicine at the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MR. KNISELEY: That was in 1962. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. Wow. So you stayed at ORINS until it dissolved, is that correct? MR. KNISELEY: No. I didn't. MR. MCDANIEL: So tell me -- give me your timeline. MR. KNISELEY: Ok, I had a hiatus of four years in 1955 to '59, when I was in California as a pathologist with a friend of mine. I was a consultant to the Lawrence Laboratory while I was there and then when I came back, I came back to this new position. And then I... During that period after I came back we were involved in training and I was nominated by the Board of Pathology to represent them in a new Board of Nuclear Medicine so I was one of the original board members. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Of... What was it? What was the board called? MR. KNISELEY: Nuclear Medicine... MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. MR. KNISELEY: The Board of Nuclear Medicine. You see, there were boards in surgery and medicine and pathology and dermatology... MR. MCDANIEL: Oh! A medical board. MR. KNISELEY: This was a new one. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok, all right. So you were one of the first. One of the first on that board? MR. KNISELEY: I was one of the founders. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, one of the founders. So when people say they're board certified, that's what that means. MR. KNISELEY: That's right. That means they have to take exams, they have to go through training periods and take exams ... and pass them (laughs). MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. (laughs) So, you came back to Oak Ridge after your time in California. You came back to this new position as the head of the training program. And, so what did you do...? How long did you do that? How long did that last? MR. KNISELEY: I did that from 1959 to 1973. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. MR. KNISELEY: And at that point, I was asked to be the -- well, I applied, really -- the Director of the Life Sciences Program at the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria. MR. MCDANIEL: Let me... I want to get to that but let me ask you: Now, was... did ORINS still operate or did it, had it become a part of the Oak Ridge Associated Universities? MR. KNISELEY: Well, they changed the name, but that's all it was, was a name change, as far as I know. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. But it became Oak Ridge Associated Universities. MR. KNISELEY: And the medical division, of course. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. So you stayed there until '73, and you went to Vienna. Tell me about that. Tell me what you did there. MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was an office job where we... MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sorry. Could you hold those papers down? The papers? That's right. Thank you. MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was a diplomats job, really. MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh... MR. KNISELEY: Because I spent time at the ambassador's place. But, it was really administrative work. We arranged conferences to spread the word about nuclear medicine. Internationally, you know. Of course, it was a great experience. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. I've interviewed several folks who went there for an amount of time, talked about living there for a year or two. They really enjoyed it. So, how long were you there? MR. KNISELEY: Two years. MR. MCDANIEL: Two years. And then did you come back to Oak Ridge at that point? MR. KNISELEY: No. 1975, I indulged myself in a... maybe a psychiatric fantasy. (laughter) MR. MCDANIEL: I can't wait to hear. MR. KNISELEY: I was married to my present wife, Joan Silva, in Vienna. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Ok. MR. KNISELEY: She had nurses' training. And we decided that I would have a practice in medicine in a country... I'd be a country doctor. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MR. KNISELEY: And we moved to a small town in Idaho and opened a practice with some other -- I was with another doctor. There were about four or five doctors in this small town. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: And I practiced medicine there. Delivered babies and did surgery, some. MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So how long did you stay there? MR. KNISELEY: Well, we came back ... When I was 68, I closed the practice but I continued to work in medicine. I drove into Boise, which is a big city, and I was in a walk-in clinic. I did 12 hour shifts there three days a week. MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. So, what made you decide to be a country doctor in Idaho? MR. KNISELEY: After 30 years in academic medicine? (laughs) Well, I guess it was a long-held fantasy. When I went into medical school I thought I'd be a doctor. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: And then I got sidetracked because of circumstances. And I was challenged by what I did do. MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh. Sure. MR. KNISELEY: And after having left Oak Ridge and sort of finished a big chapter we thought we'd do that. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, how old were you when you did that? MR. KNISELEY: In 1975, I would have been 54. MR. MCDANIEL: You'd have been 54... MR. KNISELEY: Going on 55... MR. MCDANIEL: My age. You would have been my age. MR. KNISELEY: And when I came back to Oak Ridge in '94, I worked in the clinics here. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? MR. KNISELEY: Until I was 80. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... So you decided that was something you really always wanted to do and it was time to do it. MR. KNISELEY: Right. MR. MCDANIEL: And you knew you had another 20 years or so of work, you know, left in you, you know, 15 to 20 years and you had enough time to establish yourself and accomplish some things. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: That's pretty amazing. Was it everything you thought it would be? MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah. It was, of course, difficult because you had to take your turn on the emergency room for this small hospital. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. KNISELEY: And you had emergencies -- fortunately we were only an hour from a big hospital and I could refer anything that was... I didn't have to do stuff that was beyond me. (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. So you said you moved back to Oak Ridge in '96? MR. KNISELEY: '94... MR. MCDANIEL: '94. You were 74 then. So you came back and you did... What did you do? MR. KNISELEY: Well, I worked at the community clinic and the walk-in clinic. MR. MCDANIEL: Where was that? MR. KNISELEY: The community clinic is where... It's right across from the hospital. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok. MR. KNISELEY: It was opened, really, to try to decompress the emergency room. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see, I see... MR. KNISELEY: I think it was run by this company... I've forgotten the name of it... MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. MR. KNISELEY: And then I worked at one of the walk-in clinics part-time. MR. MCDANIEL: And how long did you do that? MR. KNISELEY: Sorry? MR. MCDANIEL: How long did you do that? MR. KNISELEY: Well, 'til I was 80. That was 2000. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok... So, 12-13 years you've been officially retired. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: No work. MR. KNISELEY: Right. But I keep busy. MR. MCDANIEL: You keep busy, I'm sure. Well, let's go back... Let's go back to, you know, the early days of Oak Ridge when you moved here. You started to talk a little earlier about some of the extracurricular activities in Oak Ridge. Tell me about your life, outside of work. MR. KNISELEY: Well, we... our family grew to be five children... MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok... MR. KNISELEY: ... four girls and a boy. And I was interested in local activities. I became board member of the mental health clinic and a board member and, actually at a time, I was president of the board of the Unitarian Church. There was a time when I was also the choir director. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Ok. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Then later on I was on the board of Planned Parenthood. Then I became a member of the National Board of Planned Parenthood which was an interesting experience. And I was involved in the early desegregation protests. I carried a picket sign in front of Davis Brothers Cafeteria. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. And things like that. MR. MCDANIEL: I know there were some groups, you know, in town that kind of ...kind of did those things -- that kind of organized those things. I've interviewed a couple of folks who were involved in that. MR. KNISELEY: Well, Fran Silver used to drive us down to the cafeteria in her car so we wouldn't be vandalized. MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? MR. KNISELEY: She was... I understand you interviewed Fran. MR. MCDANIEL: Yes, yes I did... I certainly did. I interviewed the Peelles -- Bob and Elizabeth Peelle. I know they were involved in some of that work as well. MR. KNISELEY: Yes, oh, yes. Elizabeth was active... MR. MCDANIEL: What were some of the other activities? Were you involved in other clubs or recreation? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I was also active in the Playhouse. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, were you? Did you act? MR. KNISELEY: Huh? MR. MCDANIEL: Did you act? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I did some acting and singing. I was the Street Singer in The Threepenny Opera which was my ... the famous song, "Mack the Knife." MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, that's what I... that was mine to sing. It was a great production. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah! Was that Paul Ebert directed that? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, Paul Ebert directed that. MR. MCDANIEL: When was that? About when was that? MR. KNISELEY: What year? MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. MR. KNISELEY: 1963, I think, would be a guess. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Now were they in the new... in the Center Theatre then? Were they in the theatre where they are now? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: Ok. I know... I think they moved in there in the late '50s, early '60s. MR. KNISELEY: That was a great activity. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Oh, I was involved in there for years myself. My wife and I both, we actually met at the Playhouse. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Joan, my wife, was very active in the Playhouse. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? MR. KNISELEY: She must have done 15 or more plays. She actually produced and directed and was in a studio production. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really! Oh, wow! MR. KNISELEY: That was about 1972. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... Now, were you involved...? I notice behind you and to the side that we don't see on camera some artwork. Were you in...? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I was with the Art Center in the early '50s, when it was first formed. I started painting in medical school. I've painted about 2,000 paintings. MR. MCDANIEL: Wow. MR. KNISELEY: I have 50 of them on permanent display at the library of the University of Pittsburgh's medical school. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? Wow! MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. Very proud of that. MR. MCDANIEL: So, are you a 'famous' painter? MR. KNISELEY: No... (laughs) not famous. MR. MCDANIEL: You're just prolific, over the years. MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, I just kept painting wherever I was. I painted when I was in Vienna, I painted when I was in medical school. MR. MCDANIEL: What style would you call your paintings? MR. KNISELEY: I don’t have a style... (laughs) I like to try different things. I do figurative paintings, do landscapes, do abstracts. I just like to ... And if something is bothering me I might do... I do protest paintings, too. I've done some that had to do with injustices. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: Did one of old people in the nursing home last year when my wife was in there. MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... Have you had shows of your paintings in Oak Ridge? MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yes. I had shows at the Art Center -- been a number of years back. But I have a couple in the present show. MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, do you? MR. KNISELEY: Then they have an annual open show and I always submit to that. I've had things in it. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... So, why did you end up, after your country doctor practice, why did you end up coming back to Oak Ridge? MR. KNISELEY: Well, it was sort of home. We raised our kids here. It was... We had good friends here. Just seemed the thing to do. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure... What has... Because you've been here off and on -- when you moved back after being gone 20... 20-something years... MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, about 20... MR. MCDANIEL: How was Oak Ridge different? Or was it? MR. KNISELEY: That's a good question. Well, I don't think the population was greatly increased but there was an awful lot more going on, you know. Whole lot of companies around... not that I had anything to do with it... a different feeling. But the things that I treasured like the Arts Center was very active. Music Association was very active, I enjoyed that -- 'til my hearing got bad. (chuckles) MR. MCDANIEL: It's... Oak Ridge has always had a cultural bent. You know, there has always been music and theatre and art. MR. KNISELEY: Right. MR. MCDANIEL: And it's pretty well stayed that way, hasn't it? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah, it's been healthy. I think each year the chamber concert gets a little thinner because we're dying off. (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly... MR. KNISELEY: It's a select audience. MR. MCDANIEL: Now, as a physician, Oak Ridge -- I want to get your impressions about Oak Ridge, its medical services, because it's really increased. I mean, it's become kind of a regional center, hasn't it? MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah. It's a totally different place than when I left. I think its high quality and quite diverse. I've taken advantage of some of it. I'm wearing a pacemaker! (laughs) Been in for several things... I think we're very lucky to have this quality of medical care here. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. And also Oak Ridge... I mean, you know, there are a lot of people that are still here from the Manhattan Project days even though they're getting... there're becoming less of those, you know, every day... MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: But, I mean, Oak Ridge, it does have a significant, you know, senior population. MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yeah. MR. MCDANIEL: So, which is a... the services that are here in Oak Ridge keep people from having to go to Knoxville. MR. KNISELEY: Well, they just put up a new nursing home. A big one. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly... Well, are there any other things you'd like to talk about or chat about? MR. KNISELEY: Well, I could go on and on, I guess... But... (laughs) MR. MCDANIEL: Well, there's time, I've got tape. Whatever you want to talk about. MR. KNISELEY: Is there anything...? I think we covered much of what was on my list of things to mention. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. I do want to ask you -- you didn't go into great detail about this. You kind of alluded to the fact that you kind of had a -- You worked with the desegregation. You've done protest paintings. You were active in organizations that questioned the status quo to a certain degree. What...? Is that something that you've kind of always had? Is that a kind of temperament, or mentality, that you've always had, or did that develop out of something? MR. KNISELEY: That's a good question and I don't know the answer. I was raised in a community where there were very few Afro-Americans, but I guess my parents were careful not to be prejudiced which was a gift to me. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. MR. KNISELEY: I guess it was just something that I acquired as I went along. We had only one Afro-American in our medical school class of 82. MR. MCDANIEL: Really? MR. KNISELEY: And that's changed, of course, a good deal. There were only two women in that class -- one of them killed herself... because she was having trouble. But now ... the class is now doubled what it was when I was in school and they have... its women... MR. MCDANIEL: Reflects more the population. MR. KNISELEY: Very diverse. MR. MCDANIEL: Did you find in Oak Ridge a community of like-minded folks like yourself? MR. KNISELEY: Oh, yes, oh yes! MR. MCDANIEL: And why do you think that was? MR. KNISELEY: One of the sources, of course, was the Unitarian Church which was the ... I don't know what to describe it... It was certainly broad-based enough it was... It was interesting, even the hospital was segregated when I came here. MR. MCDANIEL: Really? Remind me again what was the first year you came to Oak Ridge the first time? MR. KNISELEY: 1951. MR. MCDANIEL: '51. Ok. MR. KNISELEY: Of course, everything was segregated. MR. MCDANIEL: Everything was segregated... yeah, sure... MR. KNISELEY: Schools, swimming pools, laundromats. MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Exactly. But those desegregation efforts didn't kind of get geared up until I guess the late '50s maybe? Early '60s? MR. KNISELEY: Yeah. I think it was 1960 when we were picketing. MR. MCDANIEL: Right. MR. KNISELEY: And then there were moves made to open the -- I don't know what years they were -- but the high school became integrated. And I think it became integrated along with the big thing that happened in Clinton. MR. MCDANIEL: Actually, Oak Ridge integrated in '55, and Clinton integrated in fall of '56. MR. KNISELEY: That was... I'd forgotten... MR. MCDANIEL: Now, the high school was integrated in '55, because I'm the fellow who made the movie, "The Clinton 12," the documentary. But Oak Ridge integrated in '55, because the government said, "You're gonna integrate." There was no question about it. It really was... the town was still run by the Federal Government. But the elementary schools in Oak Ridge, some of them didn't integrate until, oh, in the early '60s. It took a while for the whole school system to be integrated. MR. KNISELEY: Well, the housing was so segregated that that had a bearing on where the grade school... MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly! All right! MR. KNISELEY: Ok! MR. MCDANIEL: Are you done? MR. KNISELEY: Are you done? MR. MCDANIEL: I'm done! That's fine! Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. [End of Interview] [Editor’s Note: Portions of this transcript have been edited at Mr. Kniseley’s request. The corresponding audio and video remain unchanged.] |
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