Bradshaw, David

              
ORAL HISTORY OF DAVID BRADSHAW
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
December 9, 2013
 
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel and today is December 9, 2013, and I am at the Capital Mark Trust Bank, is that correct?
MR. BRADSHAW: Capital Mark Bank & Trust.
MR. MCDANIEL: Capital Mark Bank & Trust here in Oak Ridge in Jackson Square with David Bradshaw. David, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me.
MR. BRADSHAW: I'm glad to be here.
MR. MCDANIEL: This is... You and I have known each other for a while and I know a little bit about you, so I'm not wandering in the dark here, but there's a lot that I don't know about you. And this is about you, personally. So, why don't we start at the beginning? Why don't you tell me about... Tell me about your family, where you were born and raised, something about them.
MR. BRADSHAW: All right, thank you, Keith. I was born right here in East Tennessee, lived my whole life here. I was born in Ft. Sanders Hospital in 1967 and grew up in...
MR. MCDANIEL: So you're a young man, aren't you?
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, I consider people a lot older than me young, so, yes sir.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. BRADSHAW: So, I grew up in Karns, actually went to Ball Camp Elementary School and Karns Middle School, Karns High School, graduated in 1985 from Karns and went to school at the University of Tennessee as an industrial engineer. I enjoyed math and science at Karns and didn't know exactly what I wanted to do but knew I wanted to be in a technical field that works with people and industrial engineering was a good choice for me.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, what is an industrial engineer? What is that exactly?
MR. BRADSHAW: Really it's the, typically, it's the way humans and their manufacturing environment interact.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: In other words, is it easier for the... for the machinist to reach to here or to here to make an adjustment. What's, if they do that a thousand times a day, what's the best way to do it so it's easy for them. So that's the most basic sense.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, as a part of my undergraduate education, I had a chance to participate in the university's cooperative education -- co-op -- program.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And my job site was at Y-12 which was terrific. My mother and father, actually, at the time, had actually retired from, my dad from Y-12 and my mother from Oak Ridge National Laboratory. So I knew a little bit about what went on in Oak Ridge. My mother was a medical technologist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and my father started off in supply chain management, making sure the plant had everything it needed. They called it 'Stores.'
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: But he retired in security at Y-12. But I was, as I co-op'd, I started in computer integrated manufacturing and worked in the assembly division and, as a young engineer going into Y-12 is just a fantastic opportunity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Like a candy store, isn't it?
MR. BRADSHAW: It is. The things that they can do with, you know, in manufacturing is second to none.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So I learned a lot. I enjoyed it very much and, as I graduated in my undergraduate degree, I went on to grad school at UT. I met my wonderful wife, Sandra, the former Sandra Palmer, at the time, and we were living in Ft. Sanders just about a hundred yards from where I was born. Kind of odd coincidence, but...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: But, when I was in grad school, my... one of my co-op bosses, Sam Murphy, who I ... He's passed away now, but I think I learned more from Sam in manufacturing than anybody I know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Great man. Called me and said he had a project he needed an industrial engineer on and it was the Sea Wolf project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, you got to remember, in the mid to late '80s, the Cold War was still raging.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: We were going to overwhelm our adversaries through just our sheer determination and might.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And the Sea Wolf was definitely a Cold War era submarine.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it? I mean, tell me exactly what it was.
MR. BRADSHAW: It was a fast-attack sub, designed to be incredibly quiet. It had a unique propulsion system -- the prop. And it's interesting because Oak Ridge National Lab had worked on quarter scale versions of this prop and tested it, had new materials and new ways of dampening vibration. A lot of the R&D had been done at the Lab and when they finally settled on the design, the Navy engineers settled on the design and went to full scale, they wanted... They didn't feel like the normal manufacturing base at the time could build this thing as precise as it needed to be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, through the relationship at the Laboratory, they talked to Y-12 and said, "Can you build the prototype Sea Wolf propulsor?" And that's exactly what Y-12 does is precision manufacturing. And the challenge was, this was a lot bigger than most things Y-12 builds, in essence. Give you an idea: the propeller weighed about 180,000 pounds.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. BRADSHAW: Just the prop and it had all kinds of materials and metals, things that Y-12 was good at manufacturing.
MR. MCDANIEL: How big was it? I mean, how big was the prop, do you remember how, the length from tip to tip?
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, it ... I can tell you the boat itself was about 500 feet long.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And once they put our giant propeller on it, that propeller would seem very small compared to how big that boat was.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And I can tell you, as an aside, the feedback we got from the sailors that were actually on the ship: They loved it. They said it was, hands down one of the favorite ships in the U.S. Navy.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, it... All in all, in the end, the design, all that hard work, and all that hard work that the manufacturing team put and sailors who operated it, it worked just like it was supposed to.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, that's good, that's good.
MR. BRADSHAW: So anyway, so we... So I had a chance to go into Y-12 full time, working on Sea Wolf.
MR. MCDANIEL: And this was the time, really, when precision machining was, kind of, the main thing that Y-12 did, wasn't it?
MR. BRADSHAW: That's exactly right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, they had transferred from the electro-magnetic process, K-25 had taken over that, and...
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. The mission at Y-12, originally, was electromagnetic separation of uranium and that was not the most efficient process. Gaseous diffusion quickly became the norm and so, Y-12, really, was without a mission for a period of time. But some very smart and astute people at Y-12, I'm sure you've interviewed, probably, some of them...
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Said, "Well, you know, somebody's going to have to make these parts and they have to be very precise and they began to build the base of precision manufacturing at Y-12 which just improved through the '60, '70s and '80s and the Sea Wolf project got to take advantage of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. And part of that... Part of that machine shop work that they were doing was still for the, you know, nation's nuclear stockpile.
MR. BRADSHAW: Oh, absolutely. You know, the '80s was a big time for weapons work at Y-12.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, you know, Sea Wolf was competing for resources within the plant. We ran 24 hours a day, seven days a week for about three years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Wow.
MR. BRADSHAW: Until the actual propeller was delivered on a barge to Groton, Connecticut, and installed by the Navy folks there, so it was a fun time and, as an industrial engineer, you know, it was, you know, it was a dream come true. It was a great project.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, I mean, you know, do you... Do you know how much that propeller cost the taxpayers?
MR. BRADSHAW: Um. It was a big number but it might not be as big as you might think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, I can't recall the exact number but it was in the hundred-million-dollar range
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. BRADSHAW: And that was a small part of a big ship that was...
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure, but that was a very important part, I mean, you know.
MR. BRADSHAW: The goal was to make these boats as quiet while they were under way...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: ...as a diesel submarine sitting on the ... at the dock.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. BRADSHAW: And they achieved that. I mean, it was some smart engineers all around this country really built and designed a good product.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that movie? The movie where the Russians had a submarine...?
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, Hunt for Red October.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, it was The Hunt for Red October, that type of thing, I would imagine.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. And, but let me add this, the, you know, with all the precision computers and numerically controlled machine tools and tooling, in the end, it really comes down to the skill of the men and women at Y-12 to build those parts.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. 
MR. BRADSHAW: You know, for example, one of the parts had a curved surface, very big, as big as this room, and as they took material off one side, it would relieve itself just a little bit. And then, they'd machine this side and it would relieve itself back just a little bit.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because there was so much weight coming off of it.
MR. BRADSHAW: So much material coming off. And you can't really predict in a computer model, what that'll do. But the machinists, through their experience, knew how to just finish it up so it would be dead nuts just where it was supposed to be and that's a skill that, you know, you just don't pick up one day. That's through a lot of experience. And the machinists' at Y-12 and all the craftspeople were able to do that throughout the project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly. So... You worked on the Sea Wolf project and you said it lasted about three years or so?
MR. BRADSHAW: Right. And we continued to build parts for the... There were two more Sea Wolf class submarines, the USS Connecticut and the USS Jimmy Carter, in addition to the USS Sea Wolf.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, we built parts, smaller versions or smaller numbers of parts simply because the private sector was beginning to be able to do this work and that's a mission of Y-12 is to transfer that skill set out into the private sectors.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, in about 2000 or so, I proposed to the management at Y-12 that they allow me to go on loan to Technology 2020. The reason for that was through work for others, we work with a lot of small companies and I was able to see a lot of the technology that was at Y-12 and some that was at the Laboratory and I... We really wanted to get that technology transferred out to the private sector. You know, we invent something at Y-12 and it's used for whatever Y-12 needs it for, but it might have great application in the private sector. But Y-12 will never commercialize something. They will license that to a small company or a private company and they will take advantage of that technology and pay royalties to the government, of course, but they'll hire people, it creates jobs, creates wealth in the community.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Which is what we want. So I proposed to go on loan to Tech 2020 to help that process by building up companies or helping companies develop that might license this technology.
MR. MCDANIEL:  So you... Because you had... You had your undergraduate degree in industrial engineering but you got your Master's in business administration, too, didn't you?
MR. BRADSHAW: Right. So it was a good kind of mix of technical and business and a lot of companies in Oak Ridge are technical but need business support, too.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: And what we... and so the management agreed, which was great, so I actually moved my office over to Tech 2020 and what we found out was that there was great incubator space, office space...
MR. MCDANIEL: In Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: In Oak Ridge, there are great mentors, there are people that want to help these small companies. There's certainly great technology, you know, coming out of the Laboratory and Y-12. But, what we found was there wasn't a lot of financing. You know, a bank to finance a very early-stage start-up company based on a technology licensed from the Laboratory is sometimes a stretch.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, we set about, at Tech 20/20, creating what was then called Technology 20/20 Finance Corporation, which was, essentially, a non-profit bank. Technically, it was a Community Development Financial Institution, which is a certification that you have to earn from the U.S. Treasury. Takes about a year to get it. But then banks, like Capital Mark Bank, could invest in our Community Development Financial Institution which gave us sources of funds to finance these start-up companies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And we were successful with that. That company is now called Pathway Lending. You know, it still exists today. It's headquartered in Nashville and lends to small, early-stage companies across the State of Tennessee, including right here in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you started that, I mean, you... You helped start that?
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, I was part of the team that put that together to its successful creation. That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... And then, so let's kind of go through your work, the rest of your work history. And you left there...?
MR. BRADSHAW: So, I was only there... So, after two years, Y-12 said, you know, you either need to come back and work here as an industrial engineer or you need to go on Tech 20/20. I chose at that time to stick with Technology 20/20. It felt right, was a great mix of technical work and financial work. My dad, at the time, thought I was losing my mind.
MR. MCDANIEL: Of course.
MR. BRADSHAW: To leave a ... To leave a job at Y-12 but, you know, it was a little bit entrepreneurial and I enjoyed what I was doing, so I stayed there through 2007. We did a lot of good loans, a lot of companies that are very successful today got some early-stage financing from us which is very satisfying.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Not everything worked, you know. We... You know, some companies went bankrupt, but that's the nature of that business.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And in 2007, I was recruited by SunTrust Bank, here in Oak Ridge, to be the Anderson County President, basically because of my knowledge in the market.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And what they told me is, if you know the market, we can teach you banking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: I'd done some banking but not mainline banking.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And I was with SunTrust for four years and then another entrepreneurial bank, Capital Mark Bank & Trust, was looking to enter the Oak Ridge market and they recruited me and that's where I am today.
MR. MCDANIEL: So this is ... So Capital Mark Bank & Trust is... It's not a traditional bank, it's more of an entrepreneurial business development type bank, is that correct?
MR. BRADSHAW: We're primarily a commercial bank, which means we provide full service to commercial businesses.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. BRADSHAW: And we support their employees and their shareholders and their ownership, but we're primarily a commercial bank designed to support business.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right...
MR. BRADSHAW: Which is, you know, and if I'm doing, kind of, what I love in Oak Ridge again...
MR. MCDANIEL: Again.
MR. BRADSHAW: ... with these companies that are looking to build, you know, a successful business around technology and the life that we know as Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Well, let's go back to when you and Sandy moved to Oak Ridge. So, you moved to Oak Ridge, you said, in '91?
MR. BRADSHAW: Correct. We were married in 1990, were living in Ft. Sanders.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And Sandy was working for Oak Ridge National Laboratory as a teacher in some of their education programs.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And I had just moved onto the Sea Wolf projects so we were both commuting, separate cars to Oak Ridge every day and said, you know, "We need to go find one of those World War II era houses and just move to Oak Ridge.” That's what we said. I'll admit, we didn't know much about the history of Oak Ridge, we... which you may found... find odd, but, you know, we probably knew what an average Knoxvillian would know about Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so we ... We came over one day and we drove around town. We didn't...
MR. MCDANIEL: Were there a lot of old houses here from World War II?
MR. BRADSHAW: We figured we might could afford one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Might could, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And we found a house in Woodland and the lady had not lived there for a couple of years. She'd moved to be with her family in Pennsylvania. We made what we thought was an incredibly low offer of $42,000 for her house.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. BRADSHAW: And thinking she would never accept it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Of course, she did and so we, you know, we figured out a way to get a loan to buy the house and were very happy to move in to Oak Ridge in 1991. August of '91.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, was it... Was it like a flattop or was it a...
MR. BRADSHAW: It was a... it was an... Woodland was the first neighborhood built, really, post-World War II.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, it had... But it was still had, for instance, our house was an Atomic Energy Commission Model 18.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? Ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And there was four of them on our street. Little Pratt Lane had, you know, about a dozen houses and four of them were Model 18s and two of them were mirror images of the other. So, you'd walk in your neighbor's house and everything'd be on the wrong side of the room. (laughter) But you recognized it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And it was... It was a flattop and we really liked our street. We were about to... We were beginning to think about starting a family and we didn't want to move and this house was tiny, about 1,000 square feet.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, my father and I -- well, I coerced my father to help me, let's put it that way -- decided that we would add a second floor to this house and worked with an engineering firm on how to do it and we did. We turned out, 'bout 1,000 square feet, into almost 3,000. Added a little bit to the footprint, enlarged the kitchen and the living room, but also went up with it and that gave us enough room for ... to stay on Pratt Lane and also raise our two daughters, so...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... And you stayed there until this year.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, 'til this year. We ... My wife wanted a fireplace and a screened-in back porch and the daughters were getting older and wanted, potentially, separate bathrooms if we could do that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, we had been looking. We wanted ... there's no way we're moving out of Oak Ridge. So we'd been looking about a year and found a house that fit, pretty much, everybody's requests that we could afford, so we moved.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. BRADSHAW: But that will always be the house we raised our children in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly. Well one of the... And you have two daughters.
MR. BRADSHAW: Two daughters: Caroline and Elizabeth, both at Oak Ridge High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... Both at the high school, I didn't realize that.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, yeah... Hard to believe.
MR. MCDANIEL: Hard to believe, isn't it? But... So, here you are, you're working in Oak Ridge, you're working, you know, first at Y-12 and then at Tech 20/20 and then to the banks.
MR. BRADSHAW: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: You're having babies and growing your family and becoming a part of the community and, I believe, you decide to run for School Board.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that correct?
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: As I recall. Let's talk about your political life a little bit.
MR. BRADSHAW: Ok. That's interesting. I'm... That's an important part, not the only part of our lives here, but...
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But in 2003, no, no, no, gosh, 1993.
MR. MCDANIEL: 1993.
MR. BRADSHAW: We'd lived here about two years. I saw an ad in the paper that there was a school board election coming up and, you know, I... my family had not been in politics. I didn't know how you even got on the ballot, but I knew school had been very good to me. You know, my high school, my college education had opened doors, and I thought, "You know, I think that's something I'd like to do is serve on School Board." Try to give a little bit back.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: A system that'd given so much to me. And so, I found out it's not that hard. You get 25 names on a ballot, I mean, on a petition and turn it in and you go back because not everybody on there has the right address down and you get more signatures and, eventually, you've got 25 good signatures and you're on the ballot. And there were five of us running for three seats and this is my first election, but what it did: I had to learn how to campaign.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: So I ... I remember calling Mayor Bissell up. He was still alive at the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And to get his advice and he told me that every day, you should go down to the Snow White, which was on the Turnpike, it's not there now.
MR. MCDANIEL: A restaurant, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And have breakfast and talk to everybody that comes in. That was his advice. (laughter) And, unfortunately, probably everybody knew Mayor Bissell and they would talk to him. They didn't know me.
MR. MCDANIEL: They thought some weirdo was trying to talk to them.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, yeah... So I did a lot of door-to-door and I can tell you, that's how I got to know a lot of people in town. I wouldn't necessarily remember their name, but I remembered, "Hey, you lived on Pennsylvania and you were working in your yard," and, you know, you start to kind of learn who people and where parts of town are and what people need.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But, in the end, I lost by 10 votes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you?
MR. BRADSHAW: I was out of that third seat by 10 votes, but it really taught me a lot, you know, introduced me to Oak Ridge in a way that, you know, you can't really get introduced to until you do something like that. And it's interesting, 'cause the lady who beat me for the third spot, about nine months later, left Oak Ridge and so the City Council had to appoint a new school board member.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And ...
MR. MCDANIEL: It should have been you.
MR. BRADSHAW: I thought it should have been me, but actually, John Smith, who was a long, long-serving, terrific school board member, got the nod that day.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, did he?
MR. BRADSHAW: And, probably, fortuitous 'cause he was a great school board member. And two years later, in 1995, I ran for City Council and... Very contentious race at the time. The bond... The capital outlay notes for what was the golf course, it's now known as Centennial Golf Course, the development, was raging.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: It was ... It was just as contentious an issue as I can tell you about. And I wasn't running on a platform of sweeping out those who were in office at the time, but that's what the community kind of created.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, I ended up getting the most votes and was elected to City Council in 1995 and subsequently elected as Vice Mayor and served there, as Vice Mayor, for six years.
MR. MCDANIEL: So... so the city, the people... The residents of Oak Ridge decided, we'd rather take the devil we don't know rather than the ones we do know?
MR. BRADSHAW: That... apparently that was their decision. 'Cause there was three new council members elected, not the incumbents.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you were ... This was '95, so you'd only been here four years when you were elected to City Council.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct. But that was the advantage of running for School Board the first time. You really got to know a lot of people, you learned how to... And, you know, so, you know, it was just an interesting time in Oak Ridge and that's one thing I love about the community of Oak Ridge: People have an opinion, they try to research their opinion and give you an honest reason why they think it's the right thing. People don't just lay back and let things happen, they get involved. And that kind of spurs you on.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were on City Council and you got elected Vice Mayor.
MR. BRADSHAW: Vice Mayor, that's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: What do they call that now?
MR. BRADSHAW: Mayor Pro Tem.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mayor Pro Tem.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Whatever that means. Vice Mayor.
MR. BRADSHAW: Vice Mayor.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, who was the Mayor?
MR. BRADSHAW: Kathy Moore was elected mayor at that time and...
MR. MCDANIEL: And, the City of Oak Ridge has a... has a... the City Council members are elected and they decide on the mayor.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct. It's called a 'weak mayor' form of government.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Which means the citizens elect the council members then the council members themselves, the seven of them, elect the mayor and the vice mayor.
MR. MCDANIEL: Which goes along with the city manager form of government.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. So that the mayor does not run departments and hire and fire people, that's the job of the City Manager. And it really is a great way to keep petty politics out of the professional management and running of your city and I really endorse that form of government.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. So... So you were Mayor... Vice Mayor for that term and how long was that?
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, we're elected to four-year terms.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And then, but you're elected mayor for two-year terms.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: Which is, there's alternating cycles for council elections, so I was elected vice mayor three times so that would have been in '95, '97 and '99. Served two, three-year terms as vice mayor, then was elected mayor in 2001.
MR. MCDANIEL: And how many terms did you serve as mayor?
MR. BRADSHAW: Three years... three terms as mayor so, 2001, '3 and '5. Then I chose just, my daughters were getting, they were growing up fast so in 2007 when my mayor term and my regular council term were up, I just chose not to run again.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, you were three... eight... how many years?
MR. BRADSHAW: Twelve years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Twelve years. Ok, so, 12 years.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So they were...? So you had three two-year terms as vice mayor.
MR. BRADSHAW: Correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And three two-year terms as mayor.
MR. BRADSHAW: As mayor, exactly right.
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were either vice mayor or mayor for 12 years.
MR. BRADSHAW: Correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And this was from, let's get the dates again.
MR. BRADSHAW: 1995 through 2007.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was it like being on City Council and being Mayor of Oak Ridge?
MR. BRADSHAW: It's... That's a great question. I can tell you that there's no playbook or training that you go to be elected in this country, so to speak.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Anyone who's a qualified person on the ballot can be elected. And so, I was elected in '95, had never served on City Council, never really managed a large corporation or anything, so it was... You realize all of a sudden, you've got to come up to speed pretty fast and the decisions aren't always easy. We had a somewhat divided council at the time and so, you know, your vote could swing the whole decision one way or the other.
MR. MCDANIEL: But that was still... They had already ... They had already switched from the 12-seat council to the 7-seat council.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct. That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And all... from, what was it, districts? And now, all...
MR. BRADSHAW: All at-large
MR. MCDANIEL: ...at-large.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that's the way it operates today.
MR. BRADSHAW: Exactly the same way. That's exactly right. So, for example, we had a gift that came to us, which is the Friendship Bell, which is in Bissell Park.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Extremely controversial when the city was asked to accept that as a part of the city infrastructure.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: To own that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: And people had valid points on both sides. I mean, they, some people saw it as an apology for what we had done. Others saw it as just a goodwill gesture from the Japanese people. But it comes down to seven people, each with one vote, have to make a decision on what to do.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: As a compromise, as an example, what we did then was, we accepted the bell, The Friendship Bell, but we would only allow it to be rung once a day at 6 p.m. with three strikes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: And you had to sign up at the Civic Center, get the key, go down, unlock the striker and ring it three times and that was it. And that was, kind of, the best we could do to try to take all these opinions and form -- very strong opinions -- and form a solution. So we did that for a period of time, several months or years.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And it came down to, ultimately, a student in Oak Ridge schools came to us and said, "You know, it's time that we put these differences away and just let people strike the bell when they want to." And that was ... the controversy had somewhat died down, people saw it really wasn't an apology, it was kind of fun to ring the bell...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: People came from all over the country to see it, in addition to other things in Oak Ridge. And so, we said, "Ok! Let's do it." So it took a kid, very bright kid, to tell us...
MR. MCDANIEL: As there are many of in Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yes, there are. That, "Hey, maybe we should rethink this." So we did.
MR. MCDANIEL: And... And the bell, you know, there was a lot of controversy about it because many of Oak Ridge residents were still alive and vibrant and had... had family members and friends that had died at the hands of the Japanese during World War II.
MR. BRADSHAW: Sure. I mean, well, the Japanese were fierce opponents. Sometimes we forget that they were in this thing to win it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And time kind of clouds the fact that we needed to do something drastic to end the bloodshed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: You know, you've heard the stories of people really en route to the Japanese mainland for what would have been an incredibly fierce battle.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, we can't... Time doesn't change history. It was... What we did was perfectly logical, it ended the war. We don't need to apologize for that but there were some folks who felt like that's what this bell was doing, was saying, "Well, maybe we made a mistake and we're really sorry about that."
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And that's really not what the bell was about. You know, if you think about relations between Japan and the U.S., since World War II, have been very strong. They've been a great ally, you know, they, you know, good part of our business community. There's no reason we shouldn't foster that relationship and this was more of a, just a symbol that, hey, you know, we can work together on things.
MR. MCDANIEL: And I think probably one of the reasons was because it was Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, where we created the fissionable material for the bomb, you know, so...
MR. BRADSHAW: Sure. Yeah, if this had been a, you know, a friendship bell in, you know, somewhere in Alabama or something it would be a big deal probably, so...
MR. MCDANIEL: But it was Oak Ridge, so... Was that...? I'm sure that has to be a, you know, one of the top five most contentious, you know, events or discussions of your... of your term as mayor, vice mayor. What are some of the other major issues that you ran into that effected you and the community as a whole?
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, I can tell you that we... we terminated the City Manager at the time that I was elected. And, extremely controversial.
MR. MCDANIEL: Ok.
MR. BRADSHAW: You know, the election said something about the mood of the community. They had, you know, this city manager had recommended capital outlay notes to fund the golf course which are not subject to referendum.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: People felt like their say was taken out of the process. A very smart, shrewd, excellent city manager. So, this is in no way to take away from his skill and ability, it was just a decision at the time that really ran counter to a lot of Oak Ridgers.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, it was almost our duty to make change there and, you know, again, as a new council member, you've never fired anyone before. You got to figure out how to do that. And it's hard. People were upset. Oh, they were very upset. Some of my best friends today were so mad at me, at that point, I thought we'd never speak again.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. BRADSHAW: And that shows you one thing about if you do in politics, if you're honest, if your actions are built on honesty, you really think that's the right thing to do, people will be very, very upset but, eventually, they'll work with you again.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: If you have... If you have ulterior motives that... You won't get that same respect.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: So that was... That was hard. You know, the papers were full of this issue. You know, my wife was effected by this just because, you know, it's a family issue.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But also taught me some... I learned some lessons. You know, I learned how to handle things better in the future and I think it made me a better council member eventually. And we had ... We had very positive things to happen like we were able to, essentially, pass a referendum which funded, essentially, the rebuilding of Oak Ridge High School.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: Which, you know, it's interesting, you see other communities trying to do the same thing. Maryville school system is wanting to pass a half-cent sales tax to rebuild their school system, which is what we did.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. BRADSHAW: But we also failed miserably...
MR. MCDANIEL: But, on the high school, it not just passed, I mean, it passed dramatically, didn't it, the referendum?
MR. BRADSHAW: Yes. The referendum passed with about two-thirds support, which, for a referendum in Tennessee to even pass period is a small miracle.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And to pass with, you know, two-thirds majority is almost unheard of.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that's just goes to show you what... The value that people in Oak Ridge put on education.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yes, that's correct. And, we spent the right amount of time to make sure everybody understood what we were trying to do, why it was important. I mean, you could go to the high school, go in the A building and you could look outside through cracks in the walls. I mean, it was just -- it was clear that we had a world-class education in a second-class facility, bottom line.
MR. MCDANIEL: And my understanding was also, talk about how important people thought it was, was, and I could be wrong, correct me if I'm wrong, you'll know this. It would have saved millions of dollars had they built the new high school someplace else.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: But the people in Oak Ridge said, "No, that's where the high school belongs, in the center of town."
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. And we looked at all the options. People were offering us property, donate property in town to build the high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And it was abundantly clear that, front and center, on... in the middle of the Turnpike, in the middle of town is where our high school was going to be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And that was a good decision.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And another interesting part of that process, and this is probably unheard of in Tennessee, about $8 Million was contributed by private citizens literally writing a check, sending it in to the fund to help build this new high school.
MR. MCDANIEL: To help build the school...
MR. BRADSHAW: So this wasn't done just on taxpayer dollars, it was done on private contributions from corporations and individuals.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, you know, it's just a good, good project. And then, you know, when you look at projects that failed: We were trying to bring some retail to Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, there was a, kind of, a suggestion by Target that they would like to be in Oak Ridge. This was prior to 2008 when all retail melted down and real estate and everything else.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so we were... We put together a proposal that would have funded improvements to a site that would then bring Target to town. And, you kind of cross over a line a little bit when you go from an education project to a private sector project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: You know, this would be Target, a big company, taking advantage of an opportunity in Oak Ridge that we would pay for.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: I personally felt that the spin-off advantage and sales tax dollars and businesses that would follow Target, etc. would certainly outweigh the cost, but we went to a referendum for the... to let the citizens voice their opinion and it failed. Not quite as strongly as the high school referendum passed...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: ... but it still failed. And what that told us is, you know, we've got to be smarter about how we recruit retail into Oak Ridge. And I've got to give the council today a lot of credit. They have ... They have switched from a... a type of financing we were proposing then to a, more of a tax increment financing that really doesn't put the taxpayer at risk for repayment.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, sure...
MR. BRADSHAW: And we're seeing some success there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Starting to see some... see some growth in the businesses and things such as that. And, hopefully, the mall will be revitalized or something, so let's, speaking of the mall. That was another... That was another referendum that failed, wasn't it? Or did it get to a referendum?
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, it ... there were ... The challenge with the mall was, and I'd suspect in an oral history somewhere there's all the details, but we had a Downtown shopping center built in the '50s. Everybody loved it. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But a...
MR. MCDANIEL: And this whole, the thing you're about to talk about, did it take place during your, you know ...
MR. BRADSHAW: Some of it...
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't want to call it your reign. Your term. (laughter)
MR. BRADSHAW: Some of this occurred prior to me being on Council and then some of it occurred while I was on Council. This was a long process.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. But anyway, the Downtown Shopping Center.
MR. BRADSHAW: Essentially, what happened is you had a mall developer come to town that wanted to build a mall and actually started doing that about where the Roane State Community College here in Oak Ridge is today.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: You had the owner of Downtown Shopping Center not wanting to give up, you know, his retail base. So he suggested he might enclose his shopping center into a mall. So, in Oak Ridge, we had two people building malls which just, if you think about it today in hindsight, made no sense whatsoever.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. Of course.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, what happened is, you had... Those two guys finally got together and Crown America bought the Downtown Shopping Center to enclose it into a mall.
MR. MCDANIEL: From Guilford Glazer.
MR. BRADSHAW: Glazer, that's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was... Who was, you know...
MR. BRADSHAW: A great developer.
MR. MCDANIEL: A great developer, businessman in Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: Very shrewd man.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, I'm sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, in fact, still owns property in town.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, but the problem became is that that footprint of the Downtown Shopping Center, when enclosed into a mall, frankly, was just too big for Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: You had too much space that had to stay filled for the mall to be successful. And you saw, really, about five years after the mall was enclosed, a lot of these five-year leases were coming up and they weren't getting renewed and a lot of the stores between the anchors were closing. It was a real problem for the mall and without a good solution.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure...
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, we have tried, through a referendum which would have located some city services Downtown in addition to doing some things to reinvigorate the mall for a long time to really re-establish that. About 60 acres in the heart of our town is a retail hub.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is a retail hub, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: That referendum failed.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what year was that? Do you remember?
MR. BRADSHAW: I'd have to go back and look. 'Bout midway, probably in 2000 or so.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I was about to say, it was probably around 2000 or so.
MR. BRADSHAW: Right. And, you know, that would have put a new senior center in the mall. It would have put some city services there so, you know, people coming for city services could have also shopped.
MR. MCDANIEL: It was also going to be called the City Center.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess, and cut things up and ... And the reason that it failed was because it was a tax increase, is correct?
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, it came down to always a challenge of where do you draw the line with public money into a private sector project.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, you know, frankly, the town just was not ready for that type investment at the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. 
MR. BRADSHAW: But what it did establish is that we needed to de-mall the mall. We really needed more stand-alone stores that people could park close to and walk in to, they could walk between the stores.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: We might need more than just retail. Maybe a little housing component in there. And so, really, today we're on that same track. We've used a different type of financing as I mentioned earlier called Tax Increment Financing which means if the project doesn't produce the increased taxes due to the value invested in the project, the developer does not get to take advantage of the TIF.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. BRADSHAW: It's really... If they're not successful, then their TIF is not as valuable as it could be.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: It really puts the onus of success on the developer.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And the desire is to de-mall the mall, to build shops around the anchors, to have a housing component so you could actually live in the City Center in some condominiums or some apartments.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, really, just make that a much more walkable, much more pedestrian-friendly place that you would want to go shop.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And there's very good interest. Oak Ridge is a good market for retailers and there's good interest in some stores that you might, today, have to go to Knoxville to experience that'll be in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure. Why is Oak Ridge a good... Why's it a good, you know, spot for ...
MR. BRADSHAW: Here's my analysis of that, if ...
MR. MCDANIEL: And, as a former mayor and being involved in all this, you would, you know, you would have a good sense of this.
MR. BRADSHAW: And I appreciate that. And it's taken a long time to, kind of, figure this out, but, you know, I'll give you, kind of, two pieces of that answer. The Pellissippi Parkway, which is a terrific thoroughfare for people coming in and out of Oak Ridge, unfortunately, is a good thoroughfare for people going out of Oak Ridge. So it's very easy to go into Knoxville to shop.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, we were affected by the completion of the Pellissippi Parkway and the growth of West Knoxville retail opportunities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Absolutely.
MR. BRADSHAW: So that's kind of a challenge we had. But the benefit we have is, if you look at everything north and west of us, you know, you look at Roane County and Morgan County and Scott County. All those folks would rather just come to Oak Ridge as opposed to come through Oak Ridge and go all the way into Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: All the way to Knoxville.
MR. BRADSHAW: If you look at who uses Methodist Medical Center that's a huge draw for them are those north and west communities.
MR. MCDANIEL: Or who comes to the movie theater in Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, it's all these, I mean, not all, but lots of people from these neighboring counties, that way they don't have to go all the way to Knoxville.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. So we have a great opportunity to continue to capture that and, if we do this right, people who come into Oak Ridge on Pellissippi Parkway to work will prefer to shop in Oak Ridge before they go home because of it's much more convenient, you're already here, there's less traffic, etc.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So we have to understand that we've got some challenges but we also have some advantages that we can provide if we do this right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right... What... What about Oak Ridge have you seen change. I mean, there's a couple of other things I want to talk about and this is one of them: the population of Oak Ridge, the demographics of Oak Ridge have really, I mean, really changed since the war. I mean... But, they kind of stayed the same for 20 or 30 years.
MR. BRADSHAW: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And then, I would imagine, probably in the '70s or so the demographics of Oak Ridge really started to change. Do you understand what I'm asking and can you talk to that a little bit?
MR. BRADSHAW: I can tell you, one thing we're beginning to see, and this is in relation to the school system, is, Oak Ridge is a very good school system and it's a very good school system regardless of the skill of the student. Maybe a student is a slow learner. Well, this school system is going to put some resources around that student. Maybe a student is a special needs student. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: They're going to get the best opportunity in the school system. Really, what has happened is, we've seen a lot of folks come in to town who need to take advantage of those types of opportunities in the school system, but sometimes these folks are ... They're hard on their luck. They've had to deal with these issues for a long time. 
MR. MCDANIEL: They're what some people would call the working poor.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct. And they're trying to do the best thing for their family.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And Oak Ridge is going to provide that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And I think we should be proud of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But what that means is, we've begun to see a significant shift in, for example, free and reduced... the levels of free and reduced lunch students in our school system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, right...
MR. BRADSHAW: We're not a school system of scientists at the Lab only anymore...
MR. MCDANIEL: Any more, right.
MR. BRADSHAW: We are a much more diverse system that has students of all types and needs.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, and I don't mean to interrupt you here, but one thing that I did hear just recently is this is the first year that we've ever been over 50% of the population in free or reduced lunches.
MR. BRADSHAW: And -- I haven't heard that specific statistic but it would not surprise me.
MR. MCDANIEL: And ... But on the other, on the flip side of that coin, in five years, every student in the school system will have a tablet. There'll be no text books left, so, you know, it's ... That just seems like two different, opposite things, but ...
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, it is, you know, you will still get some of the best education this country can provide in Oak Ridge.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: It's just we're having a different, we're having a much more diverse set of students and that stresses a school system. You really have to understand how to handle more special needs students or more slow learners or more students that need advanced opportunities like in first robotics or something like that. It's just... It's just we're not a cookie-cutter school system any more.
MR. MCDANIEL: Like it used to be. I mean, it really did used to be, I mean, you know, you had the best and the brightest went to Oak Ridge, you know.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, well, the best and the brightest were hired to work in Oak Ridge and they brought their kids and expected the best and the brightest teachers to teach them and for them to perform.
MR. MCDANIEL: Absolutely.
MR. BRADSHAW: And that is... We've become a much more normal school system from a population standpoint.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: We also have some challenges with our housing. A lot of our housing stock was all built at the same time, is all aging at the same time and, you know, we're going to have to deal with half our housing all turning 70 years old at the same time.
MR. MCDANIEL: And you did, when you were mayor, you know, one of the things that you did is you did do some things, didn't you? I mean...
MR. BRADSHAW: Right. We began to look at our Center City. We put together the Highland View Development Board so that they could do some things within the neighborhoods that had the most stress. We began to attack blight. We got serious about attacking blight and, as you know, that is a tough job in our court system today. It takes a long time to actually take a blighted house down.
MR. MCDANIEL: Or a blighted apartment building.
MR. BRADSHAW: A blighted apartment building, that's right.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: So... And we've still got a long way to go but I think we better understand what our challenges are now and I think the Council is attacking them in a smart fashion.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. One of the... Also, one of the big things that, kind of, happened in your tenure as, on City Council was this kind of re... rebirth, or it may not have been the rebirth, it may have been the real birth or significant birth of a historical appreciation of Oak Ridge.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: And, you know, I know the city got branded as the Secret City and, kind of, all this started taking place probably around the late '90s or so.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's correct.
MR. MCDANIEL: So, why don't you talk about that a little bit.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's a great... I'm glad you suggested this as a topic. You know, one of the things that really kicked this off was the head ... the prime contractor headquarters had always been in the Cheyenne building on the Turnpike, which was an old dormitory.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: It had been a historic dormitory that hundreds of people had stayed in during the war. And the hospital wanted that property 'cause it really wasn't, in some people's mind, as functional as an office space as it once had been.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And the hospital did what it could. It offered the buildings free to anyone that would move them, but, in the end, they came down and that really kind of stirred a lot of people in the community to, hey, you know, if you look around, a lot of what defined this community during the Manhattan Project isn't here anymore.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: You began to see, at that time, the decline of the Guest House, the Alexander Inn. It was closing. You couldn't really find a dormitory anywhere.
MR. MCDANIEL: I think of the 91 or 90 or so dormitories, I think there may be one left.
MR. BRADSHAW: Maybe a half of one.
MR. MCDANIEL: Half of one left, yeah, half of one left.
MR. BRADSHAW: And, so really, the Oak Ridge Heritage and Preservation Association got started around that issue. You know, people sometimes ask me, what mistakes did you make as a Mayor or on Council? And I can tell you that clearly we didn't work hard enough at the time to save one of those two dormitories.
MR. MCDANIEL: Dormitories...
MR. BRADSHAW: We just... We didn't realize what we were losing until it was gone.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so, a big effort, and a lot of these were folks who work in preservation within the facilities. Some of them were retired Manhattan Project workers that knew the stories.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Really started to build a case for historic preservation, historic tourism -- how do we tell our story? And, about that time, we learned that DOE had designated several signature facilities in the country like the Beta III Calutron at Y-12, the graphite reactor at the Laboratory.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: And so we began to figure out, hey, there's some things we need to really work to preserve and we need to raise the bar on demolition of something like this before we'll do that. We need to educate our public on how valuable these resources are. We need folks to understand that people come to our town to see these things.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. And if they're not here, they're not going to come to see them.
MR. BRADSHAW: That's right. And if you think about, during the Secret City Festival a few years ago, we -- I asked the manager of Y-12 if they could open the Beta III Calutron to our festival-goers...
MR. MCDANIEL: To tours...
MR. BRADSHAW: To tours. Which was unheard of hardly.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: And they agreed. I'll give them a lot of credit, Y-12 management, that was not an inexpensive or simple thing to do. But it was a wildly popular tour. People got to see a calutron that they'd just read about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: The real deal. And, you know, in Hanford, the B Reactor's the most popular tours they have.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So we started to coalesce around saving some of these things and, you know, one day, I think we'll be able to go take our families to see the Beta Calutron at Y-12. I think you'll ... there'll be easier access to the Graphite Reactor. If you recall, you could go to the Graphite Reactor until September 11th of... when the events of September 11th occurred... 9/11.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: They really closed that access down.
MR. MCDANIEL: They closed that whole access to that whole road down through the...
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, you can't drive in front of the Laboratory any more.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, exactly.
MR. BRADSHAW: Due to 9/11. But I think those things will be open and more accessible as we figure out how to deal with security. And, you know, we're to the point today, we've taken this process to the point where we have an MOU with the Department of Energy that will preserve parts of the K-25 story onsite.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Authentic equipment. You'll be able to see the footprint of the massive K-25 building. We've got legislation pending in Congress that would designate Hanford, Los Alamos and Oak Ridge as a national... as a part of the national park system.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: So, really, from those little humble starts... beginnings, we've made progress. And I think it's good progress. You see the Alexander Inn coming back to life as an assisted living center.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: With full historic preservation as a part of that process. No, one thing I've learned is, it's difficult to preserve something if it doesn't have a useful life.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right.
MR. BRADSHAW: There's a private company going to put four and a half million dollars into the Alexander Inn to renovate it. If we didn't have a private sector company able to make a profit, run a profitable business in that facility, they couldn't invest that. We couldn't invest that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: It'd be torn down. So sometimes, you have to be flexible in preservation because there's got to be a use for it so it can be maintained. And that's what we're seeing at the Alexander.
MR. MCDANIEL: It can't just be a museum.
MR. BRADSHAW: Can't be a museum. Not enough revenue in museums.
MR. MCDANIEL: Unless it makes money. You know, that's the thing, you know. Unless it's endowed, you know.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah. And that's very difficult to do these days.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, of course, of course. Well, good. What... What have I not asked you about that you want to talk about?
MR. BRADSHAW: Gosh...
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, you're still, like I said early... early on, you're still a ... you're a young man, you've got a long time of work and life in Oak Ridge but, since you've been here the last 20 years, 23 years, whatever it is, you know, you've had a real impact. I mean, you've served on City Council, you worked in the community, you know, you've been involved, you've been on just about every board there is in town so I can't think of a better person to talk about what Oak Ridge, the impact Oak Ridge has had on the average person, you know.
MR. BRADSHAW: Well, I can tell you that Oak Ridge is a great community to be involved in. There's plenty to do. You'll be welcome with open arms. Give you an example: I visited the Oak Ridge Playhouse through... with Leadership Oak Ridge a decade or so ago.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: Didn't know anything about the Playhouse, didn't have any theater background, didn't... just ... I'd been to a few plays I guess.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure.
MR. BRADSHAW: But I thought, you know, this was really fun. This is really, you know, in a town our size to have this quality of theater. And so, we became season ticket holders and we learned a little bit more about it. One of our daughters tried out for a show and made ...the cast, so we started volunteering to help build the sets and do the props. You know, it's a thing that our family does every year for several shows now. We volunteer at the Playhouse, you know.
MR. MCDANIEL: Just like in the '40s.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah. And it ... It is fun. It is a great thing for our community, people come from all over East Tennessee to see shows here. So, Oak Ridge is not a tight-knit, closed community in the Secret City sense.
MR. MCDANIEL: It's not isolated.
MR. BRADSHAW: Yeah, you can come in here and find you a niche and you can be as active as you want to be and I and my family thrive on it. We love being a part of this. Sometimes you make mistakes, but this community will pick you up and dust you off and send you on your way and give you another shot at it. So, you know, I think Oak Ridge is the right size to have enough momentum to do big things. You know, we do big science at the Lab, we do big manufacturing at Y-12, but we're small enough where you can know your neighbor, you can volunteer at the Playhouse, you can be on a board or commission here and make a difference. We're close enough to Knoxville that if you need big city stuff, you can go get it if you need it. But, you know, we're just very fortunate and I want that ... that feeling and that opportunity to be here for my kids and their grandkids and their grandkids. I mean, this is something you have to work at as a community and you can't just let somebody else take care of it 'cause it doesn't get taken care of. You got to get involved.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Well, David, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it. It's been a very unique perspective that you've had.
MR. BRADSHAW: Thank you. I enjoyed it very much.
MR. MCDANIEL: Good, good.

[End of Interview]