Gillenwaters, Scott

              
ORAL HISTORY OF SCOTT GILLENWATERS
Interviewed by Keith McDaniel
May 26, 2018 
MR. MCDANIEL: This is Keith McDaniel, and today is May the 26th 2018, and I am at my studio here in Oak Ridge with Mr. Scott Gillenwaters. Scott, thank you for taking time to come over on a Saturday.
MR. GILLENWATERS: My pleasure.
MR. MCDANIEL: You've been around Oak Ridge for a long time. You've been involved in the community, and in local politics, and we'll get to all that.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Okay. 
MR. MCDANIEL: But let's start out with you telling me, tell me where you were born and raised, something about your family.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Alright. I was born and raised out in the Karns community, not too far from here, west Knox County. My dad was a pharmacist, doctor of pharmacy, and he and my mom owned Gillenwaters Drugstore, there, at what used to be the red light in Karns, now there are several red lights - 
MR. MCDANIEL: You mean with the Weigels? Where the Weigels is?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, where the, there's a Walgreens there now. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay, yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That used to be a shopping center, my dad owned the drug store, and Mr. Ritter had the grocery store, Mr. Helton had the hardware store, it was this small town, Karns, growing up. So -
MR. MCDANIEL: That's back in the horse and buggy days, wasn't it?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, right. He opened that store in '62 - 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And sold it in '94, I believe. So he had it a while. But I was the youngest of four, I still am the youngest of four, I had two older brothers and the next, we were all two years apart, so my sister's two years older than me, and then I have a brother four and six years older than me. I'm the baby. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you grew up in Karns area, right. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Went to all Karns schools, all the way through, and -
MR. MCDANIEL: So Karns, is Karns a town, or is it just a community? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's just a community. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Uh-huh. It's part of Knox County.
MR. GILLENWATERS: It is part of Knox County. It's actually named after the school superintendent. So Karns, Mr. Karns, I don't think he ever lived there, it's just that they honored him by naming the school. That was the Byington community, Byington railroad station was there, down near where the underpass is now, there was a little building, it's still there. That was Byington Station. So it was known as Byington Station for a long time. Then when they built Karns School, of course, people started calling it Karns, because that's - 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, sure.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Where it was.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know it's funny you mention that, because I guess Knox County has a habit of doing that, of naming schools after superintendents. I went to interview a guy, deep west Knox County one day, he told me his name and I said, where, I said, you got any connection with the school down here named, what is it, A.L. Lotts or something? He says, I am A.L. Lotts. He was the, he didn't call himself A.L., he called himself something else, but that was his name. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's what they named it.
MR. MCDANIEL: Mr. Lotts, who they named the school after.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Dad went to pharmacy school with a fella named John Karnes, and he owned Karnes Drug Store over on Cumberland Avenue -
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: And so Dad of course wanted to call it Karns Drug Store, but he couldn't because there was already a Karnes Drug Store -
MR. MCDANIEL: There was already a Karnes Drug Store -
MR. GILLENWATERS: K-A-R-N-E-S. But it still got confused, Dad got mail for Karnes Drug Store all the time.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure he did. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where's your dad from? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: He grew up in Knoxville.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh did he? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah. Mom and Dad are both from Knoxville, went to Central High School, and... my granddad owned, he and his mother, my great-grandmother, owned Gillenwater Piano Company on Broadway.
MR. MCDANIEL: Really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: And if you find an old Knoxville person, they'll remember, they had a grand piano case, sitting up on a pole, out in front of this piano store. It didn't have anything in it, but it was just the case. But people remember, “Oh, I remember that grand piano, up there in the air.” And the sign, so people remember that. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, wow. How fun.
MR. GILLENWATERS: But they sold pianos and taught lessons and all that stuff.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, sure.  So growing up in Karns, and I guess in the ‘60s and ‘70s for you, wasn't it -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: What was that like? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Like I say, it was like Mayberry, it was... interesting thing is when I started first grade, there were two schools, Karns Elementary and Karns High. Karns Elementary was first grade through eighth grade, and the high school was nine through twelve. Twelve years later when I graduated, the elementary school was K through two. The old high school was three through five, they had built a new middle school across the highway that was six through eight, and then I graduated the very first class from the new high school that was nine through twelve.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. GILLENWATERS: It was in '82, 1982. So in twelve years, that was the kind of growth Karns saw. Now there were some, I think Hardin Valley Elementary burned down so we got their students, the Solway Elementary School burned, we got some of their students. So some of that was not growth, but just Knox County not wanting to build another school, I guess. So just bused those kids to Karns. But there was a tremendous growth there. But it was, it was a great little place to grow up. We rode our bicycles everywhere, the Lion's Club built a swimming pool there in Karns, so it seemed like everybody went to the swimming pool during the summers. We were very involved in schools, and we were members of Beaver Ridge United Methodist Church, there opposite the drug store, on that corner. So we were very involved in church.  So I did a lot of youth group stuff, and a lot of singing, that's where I sort of started doing singing in the choir, and got to play the piano for worship and those kinds of things.
MR. MCDANIEL: I would imagine that piano ran in your family. You had to learn how to play the piano didn't you?
MR. GILLENWATERS: I did, really my sister and I were the only two who took piano. My dad was not real musical, he could sing, and I mean he was musical, but he didn't want anybody to know it -
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, sure.
MR. GILLENWATERS: He could sing pretty well. He had tried to play the violin, and tried to play the piano, but none of that took. He liked cars. He liked cars. My oldest brother is into cars also. But my sister and I played piano a little bit, and she plays the violin and the guitar now, and leads worship at her church. We were kind of the musicians, I guess. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Now growing up in Karns, is just, it wasn't far from Oak Ridge and it wasn't too far from Knoxville. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So when you went to the big city, did you go to Knoxville, or did you come to Oak Ridge? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yes. We went to, I remember going to the Tennessee Theater downtown, to see movies.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's where we saw, but I also remember going to Ritz in Clinton, and to the Grove here in Oak Ridge, if we wanted to see a movie. Went to the Downtown Oak Ridge to shop, went to [J.C.] Penney's Annex, I remember, and I remember the Federal Bakery, looking at cakes there. And I remember Miller's Department store in the corner. So this is where we came, we went to McDonald's, I remember. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it about maybe where the AT&T store is, or CVS, was that the one you went to?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yes, yeah. It was right in that area.
MR. MCDANIEL: That was the original McDonald's in Oak Ridge.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Okay, yeah, that was the one I recall. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's the first McDonald's hamburger I ever had was there.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I remember seeing the sign, and told how many millions they had sold, and finally went to billions...
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. I was joking with somebody the other day, and we said, I think I want to open a hamburger joint and call it Big McDaniels. I said our sign would say, “Dozens sold.”
MR. GILLENWATERS: Dozens. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I remember coming across the Solway Bridge, the old Solway Bridge, and there were two lanes - 
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it where the new bridge is now? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, they built it beside.
MR. MCDANIEL: Beside it, right.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. And - 
MR. MCDANIEL: Because I don't remember the old Solway Bridge.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Okay. I've got some pictures, I was in the Camera Club when I was a freshman in high school, we came out and took pictures of both the new bridge and the old bridge, and they were side by side for a while before they tore the old one down. But you went straight up the hill, you couldn't see the other side of the bridge. So when you got to the top, you kind of, like a roller coaster, you looked over, and then you saw the cars coming toward you -
MR. MCDANIEL: Kind of like the Green Bridge in Clinton -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, but even -
MR. MCDANIEL: The old Green Bridge in Clinton.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, but I think even steeper than that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: And it was, it was two lanes, and if there was ever a wreck on it, nobody went anywhere in either direction. But it was always a little scary, I remember coming across that bridge. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, when you were in high school, and you went on dates, did you come to Oak Ridge? Did you go to Knoxville? Or both?
MR. GILLENWATERS: A little of both. There was a Twin Air Drive-In over on Clinton Highway, so we would go there sometimes, but by the time I got in high school, West Town Mall was there, and that really changed things for us, I think we quit coming to Oak Ridge at that point, because West Town was right there.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I mean it had a, Downtown West, there was a theater there, so we'd go out to eat there, and Swenson's - 
MR. MCDANIEL: Go to Swenson's right across from where the storage units are now -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, exactly. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right across from Downtown West.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. So we, you know, a lot of the dates were going to ballgames and going to school things, or church things, rather than necessarily going out.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did... coming to Oak Ridge when you were growing up, you mentioned some of the places you'd go to Downtown, you know, and go to those different places, and the movie theater. Were there any places that you liked to hang out and eat, or hang out, you know, and cruise, and that kind of stuff?
MR. GILLENWATERS: You know, I didn't come to Oak Ridge as a teenager often -
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, I see.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I don't think I ever drove here once I turned 16.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is there a, right because you went to Knoxville.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, we always went the other direction. I do remember there was a place that I think Trinity United Methodist Church had, that was some kind of a teen hang out, and you could get, they had video games and... My youth group came out here one night, and went to that, and I think it was in that kind of, warehouse near, there on Jefferson Circle. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah, yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Where... Mickey's Produce was there for a little while, and then the workout place. But it's right in front of Trinity Church. I think it was in that area. They had... you could go in, I remember you could buy a dollar's worth of tokens and then you could spin this wheel and get extra tokens, so that'll keep you there a little bit longer, and then you could buy food and all that. But we went out there and hung out -
MR. MCDANIEL: That was the Methodist's ploy to keep the kids out of trouble.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly, I think it was. Kept us out of trouble one night.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well one night was enough.
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's right. But I don't even remember coming out here to, not that Karns and Oak Ridge played football very often, but I don't remember even coming out here for ballgames and things. I didn't come here much as a teenager.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. So you graduated from Karns high school, what year? '82?
MR. GILLENWATERS: '82. 
MR. MCDANIEL: '82. So that means you were born in about '65?
MR. GILLENWATERS: '63. 
MR. MCDANIEL: '63? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. I was born the day John Kennedy was buried.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yep. November 25th. So he was shot the 23rd, or 22nd -
MR. MCDANIEL: 22nd. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: 22nd.
MR. MCDANIEL: Because I was in first grade, and my birthday was November 21st, so it was the day after I turned six years old.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Wow, okay. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. Yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So that was -
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, you say you don't remember things from when you were... I remember that. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Hah! 
MR. MCDANIEL: I mean, of course I was six, so. Yeah, I remember that.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I do not, but my mother does. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: She was in the hospital watching it all on the TV.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I bet. I bet she was. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I went to Emory & Henry College, which is a little United Methodist school, liberal arts college in Emory, Virginia, Southwest Virginia.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now what church did you grow up in?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Beaver Ridge. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Baptist Church?
MR. GILLENWATERS: United Methodist.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, United Methodist. That's what I was about to say, Beaver Ridge, yeah.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah. So there are three -
MR. MCDANIEL: Y'all were Methodists.
MR. GILLENWATERS: We were Methodists, yeah. Actually, that's a funny story too. We were... my dad was Baptist, First Baptist downtown Knoxville. My mother was Methodist, she went to Washington Pike Methodist Church. When they got married, they went to the Baptist Church, but they wouldn't accept my mother's baptism from the Methodist Church.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? Because she hadn't been dunked. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Because she hadn't gone all the way under. So the Methodist preacher said, we accept all baptisms. So my dad moved to become United Methodist. So that's how we came -
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, I grew up Baptist, I've been Baptist my whole life. Dana grew up Methodist, went to an Episcopal high school, so you know, when we got married, it was like, yeah, there isn’t that much difference, you know what I mean? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Not a lot of difference. 
MR. MCDANIEL: There's not that much difference. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: But it's funny what we choose to get real serious about.
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was it, was it, Grady Nutt, or one of those Southern humorists used to talk about, when the Baptists had baptismal, he said, we sang every water hymnal in the, every water song in the hymnal, he says, and across the street the Methodists were singing Higher Ground. So…
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's funny, that's... Grady Nutt.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yep. Grady Nutt.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So yeah, there's three Methodist colleges in the Holston Conference, which is kind of the greater Methodist area here. I chose the largest of the three, which was Emory & Henry, there was about a thousand students, so it was smaller than Karns.
MR. MCDANIEL: Where is Emory & Henry?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Southwest Virginia, just above Abingdon. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. So not too far.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Not too far. No it was far enough to be away, but close enough that I could come home if I needed to. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh sure, sure.
MR. GILLENWATERS: But I had a great four years there.
MR. MCDANIEL: What did you study there?
MR. GILLENWATERS: I studied political science and started out as pre-law in political science, but I got disenchanted with law school somewhere along the way, and decided I would change to education. So I ended up in secondary education and political science.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Which is kind of a weird conglomeration of majors. But it worked, and so I was a class short of a teaching certificate. So I never went back to get that class so I could be certified. I took psychology as a lab science, and at that time, that wasn't considered a science for education purposes, it wasn't a science. Didn't count toward my certification.
MR. MCDANIEL: Didn't count toward your certification.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. So I was interested in government and politics, so I tried to get an internship in Washington my junior year, or after my junior year. And that didn't work out, but I got an internship with the county executive of Knox County, now the county mayor, but Dwight Kessel was the -
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: County executive, yeah. So I got to work, well, it was a volunteer internship, they didn't pay me anything, for that year. And that kind of got me some experience. So after my senior year, I applied again to work in Washington, so I got to go to Washington after I graduated, and was intern for Congressman Duncan, the late Congressman John, Senior, in Washington right after I graduated.  So that was fun, that was '86, one of the first tax reform bills, and he was a ranking minority member on the Ways and Means Committee. So it was kind of a fun time to be there, it was, you know, Dan Rostenkowski was chair, that's when the Democrats had control of the House. So he was the, he was just a mountain of a man in a lot of ways, but...
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you there for the summer? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was there, yeah, it was about six weeks for the summer. But it was crazy, of course, we were interns, so we're flunkies. I did tours of the Capitol building, and I sorted mail, were the two big things I did. But we got three huge satchels of mail every day, we got mail three times a day, filled with people wanting to influence him on the tax bill. It took three of us, there were three interns, we just went through mail all day long and tried to sort through that. That was a fun, fun summer.
MR. MCDANIEL: And it wasn't probably anything computerized, you weren't keeping computer records or anything at that point. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Oh no, no. There were some old, early computer stuff, there were a couple of form letters that you had to program in to make the computer print form letters to -
MR. MCDANIEL: Did he respond to all those letters?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, we had some form letters - 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I mean.
MR. GILLENWATERS: That we would that. Yeah, pretty much kind of like how it is now, if it was on the topic of whatever, he had a form letter for immigration, and he had a form letter for taxes, and so, yeah. He didn't respond to all of those, and certainly those in the district had more influence than those outside the district, because that's who better to spread -
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, exactly, exactly.  Now, am I mistaken or did you meet Kathy her first day at college? Is that true? Your wife? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yes. My wife is Kathy. It was my senior year, her freshman year. She's, I robbed the cradle. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It was very early, probably the first week that she was on campus. She was a friend of a friend of mine. And we had a back to school dance, and he had actually invited a couple -
MR. MCDANIEL: You can tell that's a Methodist college, because at my Baptist college they wouldn't - 
MR. GILLENWATERS: You wouldn't have a dance-
MR. MCDANIEL: They wouldn't have a dance. That's right, that's right. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So we had a back to school dance, and this friend of mine, he invited two or three of the freshmen girls. It wasn't like they were dating, but I tell the story that she came with another guy and left with me.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, there you go. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's not completely true. So yeah, we just met and got to talking, and dancing, and she lived in Knoxville, her dad was a United Methodist minister also, so we had a lot in common.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, sure.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And we just danced all night, and -
MR. MCDANIEL: Still dancing.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Still dancing, 29 years later. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's good for you, good for you.  So when did you all get married? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: We married after she graduated in '89, we married in June of '89. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you all dated for four years. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Thereabouts. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Basically. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Basically.
MR. GILLENWATERS: We did long distance. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, was it off and on, or was it pretty consistent?
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, we were, it was consistent. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Was it really?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Never, I was kind of seeing another girl at the time, and again, it was younger women, she was also a freshman, and she had lived there in Emory, was a professor's daughter. And so she had gone off to college. So we weren't really seeing each other, because she was away. But when she came home, the very first time, I went and told her I'd found somebody else, we were done, so.
MR. MCDANIEL: I bet she was upset. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Oh, just heartbroken, I'm sure. We're still good friends. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, that's good.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, so what did you do after your Washington jaunt?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well I came back, what I didn't realize was that I was interviewing for a job when I was in Washington. There was an opening in the Congressman's Knoxville office. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So at the end of my internship they offered me a job in the Knoxville office. So I worked from the fall, September of whatever year that was, '86. Until, I worked for him until he died in May of '88. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you worked for him until he died?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Until he died, yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh really? Okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, and then interesting thing, when a member of Congress dies, the clerk of the House takes over their office. So the office doesn't belong to the member of Congress, it belongs to the Congress itself. So the clerk of the House took over. So officially, from his death until the special election in November, I worked for the clerk of the House. 
MR. MCDANIEL: And who was the clerk of the House? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I couldn't tell you. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I couldn't tell you. It's a civil service job, I think -
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, really? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's not an elected position. So then Jimmy Duncan, John Duncan, Jr., won in November, so I worked for him. He changed things up and so the job I had was not, didn't exist anymore. So he offered me another job that was not exactly what I had been doing, and it was going to take a lot of my weekends, so I was, and I was working part-time at Beaver Ridge as the youth director.
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm going to pause for a second, I may cut this part out. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Okay. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Excuse me. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: We don't want you dying. 
MR. MCDANIEL: No it's allergies. And I hardly ever get allergies, and this year.
MR. GILLENWATERS: This year's been horrible. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I went to the doctor the other day and said, I'll just take a Zyrtec every morning. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's bad.
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's what they tell you. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I know. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's what they tell you. Yeah, I'm the same way, I hadn't had trouble ever, and this year's been bad.
MR. MCDANIEL: It's that tickle. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, yeah exactly, so. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you worked for the clerk of the House, and you worked for Jimmy Duncan. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Jimmy got elected, he changed things up. He wanted me to work weekends, and he was planning to come home every weekend, it was his first two years, you know, member of Congress is always running for office. So he was going to come home every weekend to the district, and really work hard.  So he wanted me to pick him up at the airport on Friday afternoon, drop him off Sunday afternoon, and then work 40 hours during the week. So it was a 60-70 hour a week job. But I was working at the church, so I asked him if he could pick up the salary that, because he offered me the same money I was making working 40 hours a week, for working 60 or 70 hours, I was like, if you can pick up this salary that I'm making at the church, I'll be glad to do that. And he said, I don't have any more money. So... I just told him that I couldn't do that, I called his bluff. Then I didn't have a job.  So at the end of December, I worked through December of '88 with him, and then I was unemployed for a while. But my minister at Beaver Ridge had moved down to a church in Cleveland, Tennessee. And he called me, and said -
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was Kathy still in school?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Let's see... yes. Yes. This was, this was '88. 
MR. MCDANIEL: She's still at Emory & Henry. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: She was, it was her senior year.
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And I was unemployed. So… 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's good, you weren't married yet. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: …we were getting ready to get married in June of that year. So yeah. This would have been '88, '89, January of '89, I was unemployed.
MR. MCDANIEL: And there're probably a couple of fathers saying, boy, you need to get a job, you need to find a job.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yes, exactly. So my minister friend, he called me, he had a program director there who was getting ready to go to graduate school. So he called me, he said, "My program director's leaving in June, July, whatever. That job is yours if you want it."
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I said, well, I don't know that I want to move to Cleveland, and I don't know that I want to work in a church full-time. But as my wedding date got closer and there was just nothing panning out job-wise in the Knoxville area. I thought having worked for the congressman people would just be knocking my door down to get me to come work for them. That was not the case either. So as my wedding day grew closer, and my bank account grew lower, Cleveland didn't look so bad, and maybe full-time church work wasn't so bad either. So in June of '89, right after we got married, July first, I started work as the, what was my title, Coordinator of Church Ministries and Youth at First United Methodist Church in Cleveland.
MR. MCDANIEL: So it was First Church in Cleveland. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It was First Church in Cleveland. 
MR. MCDANIEL: It was a good-sized church then, wasn't it? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It, well there were three churches in Cleveland, and this one was -
MR. MCDANIEL: Three Methodist churches.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Three United Methodist, yeah, there's a zillion churches in Cleveland, there's Church of God, can't throw a rock, you know, without hitting a church. But they, yeah, First was actually the smaller, smallest of the three United Methodist churches down there. But it was the newest. They had just moved out on to North Ocoee, in a new facility, and so they were, there was a lot of energy there, and a lot of enthusiasm.  That was a good first job for me, but Kathy graduated in May, got married in June, and moved to a new town in July. So she had a busy time there, a lot of transitions for her. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I guess so. I guess so.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. So I worked there from July of '86 until June of '89. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, so -
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, no, no, I'm sorry, that's wrong. July of '89 through June of '92. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so you were there for three years. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was there for three years. So that's when this job in Oak Ridge at First United Methodist Oak Ridge came out. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well I just saw it in the paper, I was looking for, trying to move back to Knoxville because that's where I -
MR. MCDANIEL: That's where you grew up! 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's where I grew up, and that's where Kathy's family was, my family was, and we kind of wanted to get back up here. Not that Cleveland, Tennessee, is that far away, but still, we kind of wanted to get back up here. And I couldn't find a job anywhere. So there was a church job, and honestly I thought, well, it’s not a real job. I'll take this church job until I can find a real job. 
MR. MCDANIEL: And you're still looking. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I'm still, 26 years later, I'm still there. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So who was the pastor at First United Methodist in Oak Ridge? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: In Oak Ridge? That was Ken Henderlight. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: When I first got here, and David Lovelace was our associate. 
MR. MCDANIEL: What was your position? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was a Director of Youth, Young Adults, and Singles.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I got to focus a little bit. In Cleveland, honestly, I did everything but preach, I think. Yeah, and direct the choir. I didn't have to do that. But I was over, from cradle to grave, of all the ministries, the nursery school, the children's choir, the Wednesday Night Dinner, youth group, everything that happened there I was…
MR. MCDANIEL: Involved.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, responsible for. And I wasn't doing all of it, but it all fell under my umbrella. So I said the only reason I worked seven days is because there weren't eight days in a week. So I was about to burn out, and so I really wanted to find something a little more focused. First Oak Ridge was a large church, they were just doing youth and young adults and singles, so that was kind of a basically 6th grade to twenty-something, maybe thirty. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. So -
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So yeah, we came here in August of '92.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now, was Chris born at that time? Was he -
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, he didn't, he wasn't born until '94.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so. You made the move with just you two.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, it was just the two of us. In fact, we didn't move to Oak Ridge in August of '92, we couldn't sell our house. That was kind of the recession. We had a house in Cleveland we couldn't sell. And so we moved in with my parents in Karns, and lived with them for about seven months. So we moved here actually in the spring of '93. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Actually moved in to a house of our own, on Tusculum, in Burnham Wood.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, alright.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So we lived there for about twelve years, I think. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you'd been... youth pastor.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. Youth Director, we're not Baptist, we don't call them pastors, yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Youth director, excuse me. Youth Director at, yeah everybody on staff, she's the secretary pastor, you know. It's your vice pastor.  Youth Director at First United Methodist for 26 years. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: 26 years. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). 
MR. MCDANIEL: What's that been like? I want you to tell me about... the way you know, the way Oak Ridge was when you first came here, and where maybe how it's different today. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. There were a lot more teenagers here, when I started, '92. We had more than 200 on our rolls when we first started in high school was just 10, 11, 12, at that point we had the junior highs, Jefferson and Robertsville, were -
MR. MCDANIEL: Junior highs. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, they were 7th, 8th, 9th grades. But there were, as I recall, 1500 students, 1600 students at Oak Ridge High School with just three grades. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Now there's fewer than that with four.
MR. MCDANIEL: Now there's 1400 with four grades. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So you know, it's... even the youth population of Oak Ridge has changed a lot in 26 years. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. Right. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I would love to say I have grown the youth group to be, you know, hundreds and hundreds, but it's actually shrunk. I'm not the poster child for how to do youth ministry.
MR. MCDANIEL: Be careful, they'll catch on eventually. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That there are no youth there. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: They'll all be singles.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly. Interesting thing, a lot of ministers don't want to come to Oak Ridge because it's seen as such a scientific community, and so filled with brainiacs, but what I have found, and what -
MR. MCDANIEL: And atheists.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, that too. Scientists who don't have time for the church. Ken Henderlight made the comment, he said, “People said this would be a different church to serve,” but what he had found, and I found this to be true, too, is that Oak Ridgers appreciate your area of expertise, whatever it is. Just like they appreciate each other's area at the Lab, because they have to. This is what you do, this is what I do. And they appreciate that.  So I just found myself very respected as a Youth Director. Parents came to me with problems with their kids -
MR. MCDANIEL: Questions. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Questions, and they respected what I said and did. I just thought it was a wonderful place to work, and I had never really been treated like that before, you really want my opinion?
MR. MCDANIEL: I guess so.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was glad to give it. So I just found it to be a great place to work, and the church was very supportive. Of course, Kathy and I were a young couple, and her dad had actually, I missed this part of the story, her dad had been the associate at First Oak Ridge back in the ‘70s, when she was in elementary. I think she went one year at Jefferson Junior High. So she was familiar with the church, so it was kind of a homecoming for her to come back.
MR. MCDANIEL: Sure, exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So that was part of us being accepted there, I think. But the church is always been very welcoming to all staff, and they kind of see themselves as a training ground, and all that. So as a young couple, people would, people would just slip money in my mailbox anonymously, take Kathy out for dinner, like I said, just those nice little things that people do. Then of course when Chris came along, everybody had to shower us with all kinds of stuff for the new baby, and so it was really like... just kind of helped raise us, I guess, as a young couple.
MR. MCDANIEL: So how old were you when you came here?
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was 28, I guess, yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: You were -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Youngsters. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Well, young, young enough. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And Kathy was about 25, 24, 25? Something like that?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, right in there, yeah. So we were, yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: So how has, you started off saying how things have changed, you said there was a lot more young people then. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Have there been other ways that population, culture, I want to talk about Oak Ridge a little bit, but I also want to talk about the Methodist Church a little bit. How has the, how has things changed over those 26 years, in Oak Ridge as far as population, demographics, attitudes, things such as that? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah.
MR. MCDANIEL: And I know you have to kind of be careful. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Because you're still working there.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Kind of got to look back.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah.
MR. GILLENWATERS: But I mean I haven't noticed huge changes other than we're getting older, and I'm getting older, too, and a lot of that has changed. You know, what's really changed in youth ministry is technology. I remember having an old overhead projector with, we put the words to songs up on the big screen and we thought we were high tech. And now we download them into presentation software and they just pop up on the screen. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, sure. Sure. Exactly.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So those kinds of things have really changed.
MR. MCDANIEL: Have you seen the demographic of your parishioners, has that changed, or is that pretty well stayed the same? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I think it's changed... well, it's changed a little bit. I mean even with the numbers going down, but one of the things that really changed is families. It used to be if you came from a divorced family, you didn't come to church. Once you were divorced, you quit going to church. And I had very few kids of divorce in the church. Now this is not a thing, it's just like, we're going to church, so I have a lot of mixed, you know, his, hers and ours kind-of-families, and lot of single parents, lot more than I used to have. Which in some cases has brought some lower-income, First Methodist was a pretty high income church, and probably still is, I guess, demographically, but we do have, and for a while we had a lot of kids who needed scholarship money for a lot of things that we did. And we had some money, so we always did that and made sure everything was paid for -
MR. MCDANIEL: They all had the opportunity.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, I didn't want anybody to ever have money as the reason they didn't do something. So we always took care of folks, and there were some kids who came to the group that I never even met their parents. They would come with a friend, and they would ask if they could have, you know, help going on a trip, or whatever, and sometimes they'd give me $10 or $15 that I know came out of their pocket. We'd take them on trips, and they probably couldn't do that, no.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, probably. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So that, I guess, culturally has changed, too, and security and what we call safe sanctuaries or child protection policies. Things you used to be able to do, you didn't even think a thing about, going with a group of kids by yourself, and now I would never go anywhere with a group of kids without another adult. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, yeah, sure. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So, you have to think about those kinds of things now.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that's sort of the way culture has changed, that's kind of a reflection of just our culture. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, right.
MR. MCDANIEL: What has been the policy of the Methodist church, well, let me, let me start with this. Because I want to, this being related to Oak Ridge, and to your congregation, let's just call it congregation.  The, because I know in the Baptist world, you know, in the Baptist world that I come from, is, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention, which is our, you know, presiding, you know, organization, they'll say, okay, this is what we believe. Of course, Baptist churches aren't required to follow those things, so what that means is you've got all different kinds of Baptist churches, who believe all kinds of, that are very, very conservative, I mean ultra-conservative, to ultra-liberal.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). 
MR. MCDANIEL: Where, how does that work with the Methodist church, and if you had to compare First United Methodist Oak Ridge on that range, where would you all fall? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, the United Methodist Church is made up of, individual churches, and they fall into districts. And then districts are part of a conference. And then you have jurisdictional things, and then the worldwide Methodist church. So we are tied to our parent, to the mothership. So we do all believe the same thing, and we have what's known as a connectional system. If I'm going to go to another town, if I want to do mission work in another town, first thing I do is call the district office in that area, and they tell me which church to contact -
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And there's the ministry going on there, where I can spend the night at that church or whatever. So we're very connected, and you know, the United Methodist hymnal is the same in every United Methodist Church, and the preacher's probably preaching from the same scripture, if they're using the lectionary.  So First Methodist is, I would say, on the liberal scale, we're probably pretty liberal. And I think that has to do with us being in Oak Ridge. There are other United Methodist Churches near us - 
MR. MCDANIEL: So there's some flexibility there?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: There is, there is. And I've been to congregations that are, well, you look at worship styles, and there're United Methodist Churches that fold their hands and sing the hymns, and there are others who raise their hands -
MR. MCDANIEL: Swinging from the chandeliers. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And going all, yeah. And there are some that make us look crazy, they are even more formal than we are. So you have all kinds of different worship styles, and then you have congregations that are just more open to things, we were one of the first, well, we were the first top ten church, ten largest churches it used to be, in Holston Conference. We're probably in fifteen now, but we were one of the first top ten churches to have a female lead pastor. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Really. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So Pastor Stella Roberts, here. That was just no big deal for our church. I think she may tell a different story, but I think she was very widely accepted, as a staff person I was grateful to have good solid leadership. I didn't care who it was. So we, and, of course, we have ordained women and things. Some of the Baptist churches still aren't doing that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, no, still not doing that. First Baptist Jefferson City just called a female lead pastor and got basically their voting privileges - they didn't get kicked out, but they got their voting privileges revoked. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: From the Tennessee Baptist Convention, so yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, we're, I would say we're a pretty liberal church, or the word now is progressive, I think.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oak Ridge is, leans to the left just a little bit, as far as you know.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. Correct. I think that's why, I think that's why we're a little more open to an awful lot of things, like that. 
MR. MCDANIEL: One of the other changes I would imagine the last 25 years has been the, has been the creation and the, I don't know what you want to call it, of contemporary worship. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Contemporary worship. Talk a little bit about contemporary and traditional worship services, and how that's been... what's been good about it, what's not been good about it. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, at First United Methodist, if you've ever been in, is a very formal sanctuary. We started talking about contemporary worship, you know, I remember the, one of the pastors, who shall remain nameless, is like, “I'm not going to wear my Birkenstocks and my shorts and play my guitar, you know, for worship.” So it was met with some resistance when we started talking about it, but there was a need for that, and we did have some folks who were interested in getting that started. It kind of got a slow start, I think the first contemporary worship service we ever did was on a Saturday night, in the Chapel, which was not really contemporary, but we did get an associate pastor appointed to our church, whose job, or whose goal was to start a contemporary worship service. And so he did that and marketed it, and branded it, and it moved to the gym, it met at eleven o'clock, it actually conflicted with our regular eleven o'clock service, so we had both traditional and contemporary, which really wasn't a conflict, a lot of people thought, oh all of the young people are going to run down to the gym to go to that contemporary service.  And that just didn't happen. We had raised this whole generation of youth to be conservative, traditional United Methodists. They didn't have any desire to go down there. We have a youth choir that sings choral music, but not contemporary, so the youth choir still sang the traditional service. So the band got started on the other end, and it really was interesting to see a lot of, it wasn't the young people, it was a good mix of folks. There were some young folks, but there were some retired people who went down to contemporary.  So it's still going strong, and is one of the growth points in our church at this point, where we're receiving new people.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know, Dana and I, I guess we grew up, you know, in traditional worship service. When our kids were young, we visited some area churches, I won't name any, but I was like, I feel like I'm at a rock concert. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: And it seems like everybody's getting all wound up emotionally. And that was the problem that I had with that type of worship, it felt very manipulative to me. And I've not been to one of your contemporary worship services, but you know.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I don't know how it would make you feel.
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't know how it would make me feel.
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's not my preferred style of worship, but I make a point of going in there, because we have some youth who attend that service with their families, and I want to be present in there, and I enjoy it when I go, but given the choice, of course, I'm a choral singer type person, so I enjoy singing in the adult choir.
MR. MCDANIEL: My guess is we grew up with that, you know, we grew up with that style of worship, that more formal style of worship, too, what we're more comfortable with. Now I grew up in First Baptist Church Kingston, which is pretty, you know, pretty conservative, so.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, even our contemporary service, people would laugh that we call it contemporary, because it has some liturgy in it. A lot of the songs are hymns that are kind of rock and roll, but we do a lot of contemporary music, too, but.
MR. MCDANIEL: Has there been much, I would imagine that with different pastors that come through... there used to be a time, and this is going to be a question about Oak Ridge, there used to be a time about where the Methodists were known to rotate their pastors every so many years, move them around. Is that still the case?
MR. GILLENWATERS: It is, and actually every United Methodist pastor is only appointed for one year at a time.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, is that right? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And so we have what's known as annual conference, where they come together. Now you can be appointed to the same church for ten years in a row, but you’re really only appointed one year at a time. That's never changed, but it used to be pretty standard you stayed three maybe four years, and now we have pretty long tenures. Unless there's a problem, the congregation isn't a good match for the pastor, pastor's not a good match… 
MR. MCDANIEL: They stay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: …we stay. We'll have pastors eight or ten years, I mean...
MR. MCDANIEL: Now do you fall under, I mean, you don't fall under that? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, I'm a lay employee.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, you're a lay employee.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I can be fired at any time, I can leave at any time, so... but I have no job protection either. Actually our ministers are not members of the church, they belong to the conference, and so they go -
MR. MCDANIEL: They serve for the conference. They serve the congregation for the conference. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. So they're guaranteed a job for life, as long as they -
MR. MCDANIEL: As long as they -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Keep their nose clean, that's right, that's right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Two more questions about the church, then I want to move on to your political career. One is, how does, there's a lot of different kinds of churches in Oak Ridge. Even though Oak Ridge isn't huge, it has, you know, there's a lot of churches. There's a lot of different kinds of churches. How does, how is that beneficial to the community, how does that work well for you all, and how does that not work well for you all. Because there's a lot of different religious philosophies, I would imagine.
MR. GILLENWATERS: There are a lot of religious philosophies within First United Methodist Church. We have, it's really interesting, but... and we have a lot of what we call mixed marriages, where you have a Baptist, one person marries a Catholic, and so will they become Metholic or whatever. So we have a lot of those that, because it's kind of a good middle of the road. The joke is, why did the Methodist cross the road, to get to the middle, because we have a very middle of the road stance on an awful lot of theological issues that divide a lot of denominations. So in that respect, I think, people, we have some diversity there, just because we have that wideness.
MR. MCDANIEL: But I would imagine it's not always been there, and a lot of that depends on the church leadership doesn't it? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It does. You know, the conference -
MR. MCDANIEL: And I'll tell you why I say that. Answer but answer your question and I'll tell you. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well, the bishop I think knows what kind of church we are, and they send people to us that they think are good matches for us. 
MR. MCDANIEL: And that happens most of the time, doesn't it, but occasionally it doesn't.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Sometimes you get a thing, and sometimes our associates aren't always good matches.
MR. MCDANIEL: We had, the reason that I say that, and I'm not going to talk bad about First United Methodist church, when Dana and I were first married, we were looking for a church here in Oak Ridge. A Methodist church. Let's go to First United Methodist and visit and have somebody come out. I think it was the senior pastor, came out and talked with us, and basically said, since you grew up Baptist, we really don't think you'd be a good fit. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: What? Wow. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm not lying.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Wow, wow. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's exactly.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I can't even imagine who would have said that. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't even remember who it was. So that's when we ended up going to Karns. But yeah, I was like, hey they don't want me, I don't want them.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Well we have -
MR. MCDANIEL: But I would imagine that that kind of person probably wouldn't last very long.
MR. GILLENWATERS: True. They probably didn't. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I don't think they did, so. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: We... we have a good relationship with a lot of other congregations in the area. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Even if you don't agree philosophically about, you know.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly. We have, I mean, there were folks in First Methodist started the free medical clinic, and that was, that's a need that everybody needed, and we had a lot of churches that joined us in that effort. We've been real, somebody from First Methodist started the Ecumenical Storehouse, which is actually now run, I think, by seven different churches, and so we work closely with all of those.  We have a couple of teams that go over to Robertsville Baptist a couple of times a month to help with their Tabitha's Table, which is a soup kitchen ministry. So we have, you know, we've just had really good working relationships with other congregations in town. I've known other youth leaders in other churches, and go out for coffee, or they call me and ask me, I'm kind of the old sage around here now, so, I get a call from folks who are struggling with whatever. So it's been a good, I think we have a good reputation in the community. We have always opened our doors to groups and scout groups, and nonprofits come and meet in our church all the time. We even do a lunch for high school kids on Thursdays, which is open to everybody. And it's not about proselytizing, we're not trying to get new members, we're just serving lunch, you know. And the kids come in, it's $3, they have a smile from Mom, give them seconds and thirds, as long as there's food, they can eat. So we just want kids to have a good experience there. I think people remember that when they look at our church in the community. I think they see that we're alright.
MR. MCDANIEL: Are there issues that you've had to help parents deal with or you deal with yourself, that are different now than they were when you first started? I mean community issues with kids? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I don't know that things are too awfully different. I think one of the things that I deal with parents is divorce. And you know, those folks, like I say, used to leave the church. Now they stay in, so that means I'm often involved in some things -
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you do a lot of counseling kids?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Some, not as much as I used to. I think that has to do with how many kids are in the church now, but yeah, I've helped with some custody things, and just kids who just don't handle it well. And some ages are better for divorce than others, and adolescent years are the worst years to be, because that's when it's all about “me,” I'm the one who's growing and changing, and I'm trying to gain control of my adolescent body and everything else. Then my parents go and make it all about them all of a sudden. It's a really, really tough time for teenagers.  So anytime parents’ divorce with a thirteen year old, it's tough. Whether it's a boy or a girl, it's a really, really tough time to do that. So then that's becoming more prevalent. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Now I know you got a new pastor, Mark Flynn, has come in within the last year. And Mark used to be at Kern -
MR. GILLENWATERS: At Kern, right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: One of the smaller Methodist churches here in town. How is, is that unusual?
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's very unusual. And we've been the testing ground for a lot of things like that. We had -
MR. MCDANIEL: I would think that that would draw people who loved Mark at the other church, that would draw them to their church.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right.
MR. MCDANIEL: And that might become an issue for -
MR. GILLENWATERS: He has been very good about that, and has made it very clear that he doesn't want people doing that. Now people who are inactive at Kern, who are visiting, that's a different story, but he doesn't want people church swapping, that's not what we're interested in doing. But we had Bob Cantrell, who, he grew up at First Oak Ridge and was appointed pastor here. That was really unusual to have somebody who had grown up in a church be appointed... matter of fact, he may have been the first in Holston Conference, to be appointed to the church he grew up in.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And then we had Steve Martin appointed as associate. He too had grown up in our church. And that was unusual to have him be appointed. So we've kind of been the testing ground for a couple of things. I don't know, I mean Knoxville's a big place, Oak Ridge is kind of a small town, so I'm sure there are pastors who've served different churches in Knoxville. But when you serve two churches, and now there are only two United Methodist churches now that Trinity merged with us.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I was going to ask, I was going to ask you about Trinity merging.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, there are only two, and Mark has now served both of them.
MR. MCDANIEL: Both of those.
MR. GILLENWATERS: As I understand it, and you can ask Mark, but as I understand it, he wanted to come back here, he loved Oak Ridge, and wanted to come back to First Church, and was very excited about doing that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Tell me about what happened with Trinity. You all kind of absorbed Trinity, didn't you? What happened there?
MR. GILLENWATERS: We did.
MR. MCDANIEL: They were just, they were just, their congregation kept getting smaller and smaller -
MR. GILLENWATERS: They kept getting older and older, yeah, and like I said, we used to come out here and go to their youth ministry thing when I was in high school, but it kept dwindling. And they did the same thing. They used to have a place called Perks Coffee House, and they had a pastor, he had two teenage boys, and that was the youth group, those two boys. But that congregation said, how can we be in ministry to the teenagers in this community, they're not coming to our church, how can we go out to them?   So they created this Perks Coffee House, which was only open I think on Friday and Saturday night, they had garage bands come in and play music, and the little old ladies made cookies & cakes and coffee, and they would have 150, 200 kids in there. Just jam-packed into this place. So they actually came to us with plans to expand, and so they had all three churches at one point on the board of directors and we moved into a larger place there in Grove Center and tried to make a go of it.  We went probably a year and half, two years, and it really just kind of fizzled. Kern was not as invested as we were, and then the pastor who had the two teenage boys, he was moved from Trinity, and a new pastor came in who did not see the value in that. So it didn't last a whole lot longer than that. But Trinity, I think, was down to fifteen or twenty in worship on Sunday morning, maybe thirty, forty, on the roll. So they had, they could've closed down, and just let the conference take over, and the conference would have taken their building and done what they wanted to. But they chose to control their own destiny, and merged. So it was the difference between shutting down and merging, and they decided to merge.
MR. MCDANIEL: So they merged with your church. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: They merged with First Church.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what happened to the property, does that belong to -
MR. GILLENWATERS: It all came to First Church. Some of those folks joined our church, most of them didn't. Some of them have joined Kerns since then, but I think they wanted to make sure that their building stayed, and that it was part of a church. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So there were lots of ideas for that.
MR. GILLENWATERS: There were. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Lots of ideas floating around town for what would happen to their...
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right, and we have turned it into kind of a mission center now, the Trinity Outreach Center.
MR. MCDANIEL: Almost kind of a community center, I mean, to a certain degree.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. And there is a congregation that meets there, the Hispanic congregation.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's what I was about to say.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. But then like AYSO [American Youth Soccer Organization] has their offices there, the soccer organization, and I don't even know, it looks like alphabet soup on the sign -
MR. MCDANIEL: But and... the medical, free medical clinic started there, they started there didn't they?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Free medical started there, right. They did, they did. They've moved to bigger quarters now.
MR. MCDANIEL: You know that was the church Dana and I was married in.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Really. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Trinity. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Trinity.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, we got married at Trinity. We sure did.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So you know, I think the goal is for it to become a large enough nonprofit that it can sustain itself and maybe become non-owned by our church anymore. So we want it to continue to be an outreach to the community.  So that's kind of the direction it's heading, but -
MR. MCDANIEL: Are there any congregations in town that you just don't see head to head with, or just don't, you just cannot support their mission? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, I mean we have some issues obviously theologically, with some churches, and differ, but even those we work together where we can work together.
MR. MCDANIEL: To serve the community.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Like in a clothes pantry, or food pantry, something like that. It doesn't matter how you baptize people or whether you ordain women or, you know. Whether you -
MR. MCDANIEL: That don't matter to somebody who's hungry. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly and they don't have time for you all to argue about that, either so.
MR. MCDANIEL: Exactly.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So yeah, we, I mean obviously we disagree theologically with some folks, but we've never had, I don't think we've had any knockdown drag-out kind of fights with anybody. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Alright, let's get off the church work, we've talked about that, we've beat that horse enough.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Alright, alright. 
MR. MCDANIEL: You have, you know, you have a degree in political science, and you've been involved in politics, local politics, tell me about your interest and your career in the local political scene.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, I have always been interested in government, and really felt that's where I was going to end up. I don't know that I've been called into anything that I've done, but I really have always had that interest in government. When I first got here, there was a, there's still an organization called Victim Offender Reconciliation Program.
MR. MCDANIEL: It's called what?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Victim Offender Reconciliation Program.
MR. MCDANIEL: I see. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: VORP. And it's part of community remediation services. And what they do is, they mediate first time nonviolent juvenile offenses for the juvenile courts. So it's volunteers that do that. They came in and made a presentation to our youth group, and I was just, I thought that was the coolest thing ever. And so I've been a volunteer mediator with them for 25 years now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, okay. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Mediating these court cases. So that was kind of my -
MR. MCDANIEL: And it keeps kids out of the judicial system, I mean the, jail.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Keeps them from being litigated. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Right, right. Exactly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And you know, you got two lawyers talking about you, this you actually, you can smash somebody's mailbox, this teenager goes and talks to the person whose mailbox he smashed, or she. And there's some real healing there, there's been all kinds of research on how much better that is for a young first time offender than litigation. And so it's cheaper for the families -
MR. MCDANIEL: Cheaper for the county.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Everything is great. Everything about it is wonderful. So I've just, that's just been a great, well I call it a ministry, but it's a great project and... So that was kind of my first step into working with the courts, and anything having to do with the county. I don't really know how I got in, I mean, what the first step I took was, but I remember being interested in running for state rep, state representative seat, when David Coffey, he retired. He retired, and there really wasn't anybody running... I was kind of a Reagan Republican at that point, so there wasn't anybody running in the Republican party. I kept hearing this name of a young attorney who was running, and I thought, well, I'm not young, but I can do this. So I got a little bit interested, and the more I got to thinking about it, the more I realized there's no way I can do this and work in the church, because state legislature starts at noon on Monday and then until Thursday, and there was just not any way I could do that. So I backed out of that. But that kind of let some people know that I was interested, and so when an open seat came up on county commission -
MR. MCDANIEL: Who was the young attorney by the way?
MR. GILLENWATERS: That would have been Tony Capiello.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: He's an old Karns boy, too, he went to Karns one year, we were at Karns Middle School together for one year, but yeah. Tony and I are good friends now, but he ended up running and losing to, who served forever... 
MR. MCDANIEL: Gene Caldwell?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Gene Caldwell. Yeah. Gene Caldwell won that election. He was a Democrat running that year, and Gene and I became good friends over the years too, he's a great guy.  So anyway, I got some interest in, when Terry Weaver decided not to run for re-election for county commission, in 2002. Some folks said, hey, you ought to run for that county commission seat, you're in that district, and you can do that. So I ran -
MR. MCDANIEL: It was the Oak Ridge seat, right? Or one of the -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, there's three districts in Oak Ridge, so this was the West End, and Jim Vines held the other seat, there were two seats, Jim Vines held one, and then there was an open seat. Larry Dickens, who's a former city council member, he ran and I ran for the open seat. So there were three of us running for two seats. Well needless to say, Jim Vines beat both of us, but then Larry beat me by 78 votes.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right?
MR. GILLENWATERS: In my first race. And I worked so hard. So went down in defeat in 2002, and then -
MR. MCDANIEL: Jim got killed.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Two years later, about two years later Jim was killed in a car accident. So my phone started ringing, said, you need to put your name in the hat to be appointed, I had to be appointed by county commission. Jim's wife, Anita, put her name in the hat, and there was another lady, and I can't remember her name, from the Scarboro community, who put her name in the hat.  So there were three of us who were trying to be appointed by county commission for that seat, and they picked Anita, and so -
MR. MCDANIEL: How could they not.
MR. GILLENWATERS: How could they not. So I -
MR. MCDANIEL: Kind of like Marilyn Lloyd.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly, exactly. So, but again, I thought it was important for me to continue to show my interest in that. So roughly two years after that, Anita decided to run for Register of Deeds, I believe is what she ran for. And she didn't win that, but she decided to run for that, instead of -
MR. MCDANIEL: Instead of county commission. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: County commission. So that seat was going to be open again, so I put my name back in the hat. There were four of us running for two seats. Larry Dickens was running to be re-elected, and then I was running, then Terry Weaver decided he wanted his seat back, and so he was running. And then, I've forgotten the... other person who ran, anyway, I'll think of it -
MR. MCDANIEL: That's alright, you'll think of it.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, so there were four of us running, I thought, oh my gosh, I cannot get a break here. 
MR. MCDANIEL: For two seats.
MR. GILLENWATERS: For two seats, so four of us running for two seats. Well, when the dust cleared, I came in second.
MR. MCDANIEL: Did you.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And so I got my, I got my own commission, and -
MR. MCDANIEL: Who won, Larry Dickens? Yeah.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Larry, yeah, Larry had. And -
MR. MCDANIEL: So what year was that? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That was... that was 2002.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. No, is that right? No, no.
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, no. That would've been... 
MR. MCDANIEL: 2006?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Six? 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah because you said you lost, and it's two year term. You just mixed up.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I guess, yeah. Maybe that was '98, I'm going to have to think now.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay. How long have you been on county commission?
MR. GILLENWATERS: I served eight years, left in '10, so it had to have been 2002. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I ran in '98, and lost, and then -
MR. MCDANIEL: Didn't get appointed in 2000 -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Didn't get appointed in roughly 2000, then ran in 2002 and won. So I served eight years until 2010. And then well, in the, four years later, Larry and I were running again, and another fellow, Whitey Hitchcock, put his name in the hat, and after the filing deadline, Larry Dickens died. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Suddenly. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Heart attack. So there wasn't any way anybody could get in the race -
MR. MCDANIEL: And how many seats were available? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: There were two.
MR. MCDANIEL: Okay, so there were three of you?
MR. GILLENWATERS: No, there were only, well there were three, and then when Larry died there were only two, and nobody else could get in the race, so we kind of ran unopposed that year. I did win, I beat Whitey by a few votes, but I really didn't even campaign much, I loved Larry Dickens, he had been a real mentor to me, and that just took the wind out of my sails, I think. If there had been six people running, I probably would have dropped out, my heart was just not in it.  So I just went through the motions. I had ordered some signs already when he died, and so those signs came, and so I put them up, but I didn't... I think I put up ten signs, I just really wasn't -
MR. MCDANIEL: Wasn't into it. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Wasn't into it. But then I decided I would just serve those last four years in memory of Larry. We were able to dedicate the Dickens building over there off Emory Valley road to him, and so. So I served four more years, and decided not to run in 2010. So, thought I was getting out of government, and then the person who was on the school board, who won that school board, it was Whitey's wife Ellen, she won a school board seat in August of '10, and then resigned in December of '10. So I was appointed to the school board -
MR. MCDANIEL: Anderson County School Board. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Anderson County School Board in January of 2011. And I'm continuing to serve there -
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh you're still serving there? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, I'll finish my term in August this year. So because I ran for trustee earlier this year, I couldn't run, I couldn't run for both, so I had roll the dice, so.
MR. MCDANIEL: So tell me about, you know, let's talk, we're going to wrap things up here shortly. Tell me about your being trustee, what made you decide to do that? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Oh, do we have to talk about that? 
MR. MCDANIEL: I know you didn't win. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I know, it was tough. Well, Rodney Archer and I had been good friends, Rodney was a trustee here for twelve years, I guess. He and I were freshmen commissioners together in 2002.
MR. MCDANIEL: And what does a trustee do?
MR. GILLENWATERS: A trustee is the, basically the treasurer of the county. They collect all the tax dollars, all the money comes in to them. And then they kind of disperse it. So he ran for trustee after one term on county commission, he won and had been serving. He took a job at the state, so it was an open seat. Again, my phone rang, and people said you ought to put your name in the hat for this trustee seat, and commission was going to appoint that. So I, that was last July. And they appointed Myron Iwanski who was on commission, and also a good friend of mine. But again I thought it was really important that I at least express interest in that. And they asked me that night, are you planning to run for the seat? And I said, yes. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh okay.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I kind of - 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you were committed.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was kind of committed at that point. One thing you can never control in any election is who runs against you. So we had, actually had three good solid candidates running for the Republican primary, course its Anderson County in 2018, it's going to be a Republican. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, that's true.
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's hard to be a Democrat. So I, you know, like I said, I was a Reagan Republican. I told somebody the other day I was a Reagan Republican and they said, oh so you're basically a Democrat now. Which is probably true -
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, that's probably true. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: You know, socially I'm very liberal, and -
MR. MCDANIEL: Republicans have gone off the - today's Republicans have kind of gone off the deep end a little bit.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. And I don't claim a lot of the right-wing Republican stuff, that's not me. So I probably could have run independent, I probably could have run Democrat, but -
MR. MCDANIEL: But you wouldn't have got elected.
MR. GILLENWATERS: For sure.
MR. MCDANIEL: As a Democrat, probably. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's what I felt. I didn't think I could win as that. Of course, I obviously couldn't win as a Republican either, so I came in a distant third in the race -
MR. MCDANIEL: And that, and who was running against you?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Regina Copeland, who won that. And then Scott Burton, who was mayor of Clinton. He came in second, but he was a distant second. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Were you really disappointed, I mean were you surprised? I mean I'm sure you're disappointed, but were you surprised? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I was not, there was a lot of money in this campaign, and one thing I don't have is a lot of money, and I don't have a lot of rich friends. So when I look at what was spent, again I think I was just kind of out of my league in realizing what it took to win a county-wide race. It's a whole lot different than the 6th District.
MR. MCDANIEL: Well this might bring the trustee down on me, trying to get taxes from me, but I voted for you. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Oh, okay, well that's good to know, I appreciate that. Oak Ridge was not my problem. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure Oak Ridge -
MR. GILLENWATERS: I carried Oak Ridge. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, I carried it pretty well. If I had carried it better I would have had a little better chance of winning, but... Oak Ridgers have a hard time winning in the county, and I join a long line of Oak Ridgers who've run for county office who didn't win. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Just have a hard time, because... that goes back to the original days of Oak Ridge, Oak Ridge being what it is, and the county being what they are.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yup, there's still some of that animosity.
MR. MCDANIEL: There's still some of that, yeah, absolutely. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So but I've enjoyed serving on the school board, I serve as vice chairman now, and I chair the budget committee, so I've been really, really active in that, and I really hate that I can't continue to serve, I wish I could have kept my name in there while I ran for trustee, but -
MR. MCDANIEL: Well maybe something will happen to some one of them, and they need to appoint somebody, so -
MR. GILLENWATERS: That's right. Well, actually my oldest son Chris is going to run for that position.
MR. MCDANIEL: Is he really? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. And he's the only one who's put his name in the hat, so he will -
MR. MCDANIEL: Is that right? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: He will win, if he at least votes for himself, he will win in August, and -
MR. MCDANIEL: So he's the only, he's... so -
MR. GILLENWATERS: He's the only person from the 6th district.
MR. MCDANIEL: Running? Running for that?
MR. GILLENWATERS: Correct. And that's a non-partisan seat. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, I see.
MR. GILLENWATERS: County commission and county school board are both non-partisan, so this trustee race was the first I ever had to tell anybody what party I leaned toward, and that wasn't as, I didn't really lean as Republican as a lot of people.
MR. MCDANIEL: Yeah, as a lot of people.
MR. GILLENWATERS: I had a lot of Democrat friends who voted for me, including my wife. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So yeah, Chris is going to be the school board person unless he gets a teaching job.
MR. MCDANIEL: One of my friends says, he says, I'm a member of the Nazi Party. Talking about the Republicans. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Oh, wow.
MR. MCDANIEL: He's quite liberal. But that's alright.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, that's true. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So you've got two sons, Chris, who just, he graduated from Emory & Henry, a year ago? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Right. He graduated last spring, and he has been substitute teaching in, he's a music education major K-12, he's been substituting at Oak Ridge for this year. So hopefully he will get a contract, somewhere near here so he can, he has to live in the district in order to serve.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh yeah, that's true, he does, actually. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, and he was worried about that. He didn't, he was interested in school board, and he came to me, I didn't ask him to run for my seat, I was looking for other people, I'd called about five or six people trying to get them to run, and nobody was interested in serving on the county school board, living in Oak Ridge.  But he came to me one day and he said, “Dad, I'd be interested in that.” I thought, well, good for you. So he's, he didn't have a contract, so he's like what happens if I get a job, you know, in Virginia or someplace. I said, well, you got to roll the dice at some point. You resign, and the county commission appoints somebody.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's true.
MR. GILLENWATERS: So that's where we are right now. He's hopeful, he's got a couple of good prospects in the area.
MR. MCDANIEL: Oh, good. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I think he will be in the area, he will have no problem serving.
MR. MCDANIEL: And your younger son, Andrew, he's at Tennessee Tech, he just finished his second year -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Sophomore year, right. He, too, is music education, so I'll have two teachers in my family, which is just great. They'll be poor, but they'll be rich in so many other ways.
MR. MCDANIEL: They'll be happy, that's true.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Kind of like being in youth ministry, you don't get the big salary but you get -
MR. MCDANIEL: So when you first started, when you were in college, you never really saw your life go in this direction, did you? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: I did not. If you had told me I would be working in a church as a youth director for 25 years when I was in college or high school, I would've laughed. That was... it's really funny when I look back, I was always involved in church, always interested in that. I was there every time the door was open, I opened the door half the time, and that was just such an important part of my life. But it just never ever crossed my mind to be, that that's what my career would be, and that I would spend time doing that.  But when I look back, you know, I talk to people, I say, wow, bet you're really surprised that I'm in the church. And they go, nope, we always knew that's where you'd be. I was like, why didn't you tell me? 
MR. MCDANIEL: How funny, a friend of mine, pastor friend of mine, old saying is, you know ministry would be a pretty good job if you didn't have to deal with all those people.
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yup, that's right. That's right. 
MR. MCDANIEL: So. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, I read a thing the other day that said, you wouldn't have youth if it weren't for their parents. Sometimes the parents are harder to deal with than -
MR. MCDANIEL: And I just said, if the Lord called me to full-time church ministry I'd just have to say, no, I'll be disobedient, I'm sorry, I can't do that. Kind of did some interim work when I was in college, you know, but was like, no, I can't do that full-time. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's just, yeah. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'd kill somebody.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And the trustee would have been a full-time job for me. I would have had to have left the church had I taken it, had I won that job. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That's true.
MR. GILLENWATERS: And the church had been very supportive of that.
MR. MCDANIEL: Were they more supportive, were they really supportive? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It was, I told them, I said, it's kind of hard to know how to interpret your all’s support, whether you're trying to get rid of me, or whether you really want me to win this seat. 
MR. MCDANIEL: How funny.
MR. GILLENWATERS: But I think they understand. I mean, I'm 54, and that's, it's hard to do youth ministry as effectively as I did. I was never young and cool, but I'm certainly much less young and cool than I ever was now. So that's made it a little more difficult. So I thought, well maybe it's time for me to find something else to do, and so I, I stuck my foot in those waters a little bit to see.
MR. MCDANIEL: Do you plan on pursuing that, something like that again? Do you know yet? Or is the sting still -
MR. GILLENWATERS: The sting is still -
MR. MCDANIEL: Still hard from the -
MR. GILLENWATERS: Still hurts. I don't think I will see myself running for any kind of county or state job, I wouldn't mind getting back on the school board or county commission, and maybe city council or Oak Ridge school board. Something that's a little more local. I think that's where you have the greatest influence, too, and I think those are the seats that really matter, and really affect lives, so. So you know, I'm not ruling out any of that, but none of that is on the front burner right now. 
MR. MCDANIEL: You got to let the burn calm down just a little bit, don't you. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Exactly, exactly. And it's too late to do anything this year, I can't qualify for any election this year. 
MR. MCDANIEL: That is true. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: So I'd have to wait two years anyway. I've decided there's a reason elections are four years apart, because it takes that long to recover if you don't win. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I'm sure. I'm sure. David Bradshaw, he always told the story about when he ran for the school board, first school board, he got beaten soundly, you know. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: It's a little humbling. 
MR. MCDANIEL: I was like, why? You know, so. But anyway. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: And I don't want to go out on a loss, I've got to run again and win.
MR. MCDANIEL: What, anything that I've not asked you about that you want to talk about? 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Hmm, golly, we've covered, we've covered an awful lot. No, I can't... can't think of anything else, I was waiting for you to just ask me questions, so, I'll give you an opinion anytime you want.
MR. MCDANIEL: That's fine. Alright, well very good, Scott, thank you so much for coming over and spending the afternoon with me. 
MR. GILLENWATERS: Yeah, it's been a pleasure, it's been fun, thanks. 
MR. MCDANIEL: Good, thanks.
[End of Interview]

[Editor’s Note: This transcript was edited at Mr. Gillenwaters’ request. The corresponding audio and video components have remained unchanged.]